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| 00:05 | foreign thank you and stay only at the minute oh there he is hi guys hi Seth good evening all right what's what time do we have not quite time to start yet hello we're shade ahead yeah nice to see you Robert well nice to be here thank you for inviting me no problem I I thought I'd invited you long ago actually but maybe you missed it I don't know totally poorly yeah explain the same party characters I've seen elsewhere |
| 01:11 | I think you've been on the Prague meetings I guess as well yeah there's so many now yes uh and uh okay and achim's here as well so akim's new to us he's a German chemical engineer who introduced himself last time all right nothing how are you the same they say no hi good to see you yeah I discovered that we're almost neighbors we live very close to each other we met up for coffee the other day wonderful yes and uh yeah great um I can also I also have that claim to fame a little coffee chat in London yeah oh |
| 02:03 | yeah yes yeah I'm fascinated by your uh hydrogen um idea of cooling the oceans and making hydrogen add another look at your website but it doesn't give too much away so of course oh yeah yeah yeah give me your opinion give me your PIN code for your bank card okay yeah fair enough I'm still once I've got all the data I'm having once the pattern is properly filed then I'm happy to talk about it uh fair enough yeah there's proper there's proper mechanisms behind it and also using mechanisms that are well known in |
| 02:39 | science it's not thermodynamics suddenly tilted around and uh you know yeah I I thought there'd be as much given you a chemical engineer yeah okay well it's time to start everybody and uh what we do here as I think you all know is um I we think of an agenda some we decide what we want to talk about first and if I can bring it bring this up that's my course today uh so what would we like to speak to today to speak about today foreign question or wants to talk about something Tipping Point I'd like to go through the |
| 03:30 | my attempted consensus for years very good yeah um but but that should that should come later well we left it later last time and then there was only a few not long to talk about it so not too late yes yeah um so this is um noack what do you want to call it Sev um question mark yeah okay that's nice and short there's the Mexican Government ban on any kind of geoengineering experiments yeah that's right okay caused by the make sunsets folks genetic experiments or just the uh make sunsets ones I think it's any atmospheric one um |
| 04:16 | probably or something right the uh hi guys hi hi friends and brew and David hello yes hey hello all right so the question is the usual question what do we want to talk about today so that is an official uh Mexican governments state stratospheric or solar radiation management techniques apparently except that I can't get into it at the minute that's related to this I guess is it the uh the band yeah exactly let's make it part of that then now Stephen introduced that yeah I just asked Rocio to quickly read it she is |
| 05:09 | actually Mexican so she can make it there is a translation though which I'm just looking at now which is not officials there's a link on the Google gear engineering groups to it um yeah it just refers to solar Geo engineering experimentation practices in the country so it's not a total geoengineering type of one but it's the solar due engineering because I've got that then so [Music] so that's two things do we know whether solo would include thermal radiation management or not I think you have to guess that there's |
| 05:51 | nothing in the statement that I can see that it refers to it it just um it makes reference to the make sunsets um thing um and talks about um release of aerosols um and also mentions aluminum sulfate as well So it's talking about putting stuff things into the internet allow Stephen's uh uh spring or even MCB come to that hot water yeah okay so it's not um limited to the stratosphere well it doesn't mention it just talks about aerosols and things primarily okay yeah so I guess it's I'll put the link in the |
| 06:41 | chat so people can have a look at it themselves okay thank you very much uh so I mean bottom line is it saying no to even any testing I mean these people Sunset people just went ahead without getting any permission yeah before doesn't go down well with governments no um although there is a question of who if who can give permission is there anyone who can say Yes um yeah hmm good question yes within your national territory governments probably can right but you know international territory you know that balloon is |
| 07:24 | flying who knows where because he didn't actually do any measurements as far as I can tell of anything yeah it was just a stunt but uh I suppose you can't you have to launch the balloon from somewhere yeah um he was going to launch it from via California that's the Mexican bit the long thin bit Ah that's why Mexico yeah did that but anyway more generally more generally you know there is no real international law about these matters it's going to take a long time to get any kind of regime that might even say yes much less |
| 07:58 | no it's an issue for us I'm going to put something up uh from uh what Robert's been saying to me Robert uh Chris um you you've been saying Robert that if we want to reduce the you know avoid tipping points and reduce the temperature then these very nice ideas that some of us have including me about uh reducing the methane concentration in the air are not sufficient and uh Albedo enhancement is the critical path to climate stability that's right yeah that isn't quite what I've been saying okay right let's put it |
| 08:49 | up here then so you can say some more about that okay fine yeah I thought that methane was now about 40 percent of CO2 Effectiveness that that was Rising so that it could overtake CO2 as the dominant greenhouse gas yeah that's not that's I mean it's not it's not this is not about whether or not elimination methane would have a climate impact this is all about timing and um that's essentially what it's about yeah we'll get to it yeah we'll get to it yeah yeah I'm sure you're |
| 09:24 | right Stephen with that zooming up anything else uh we could have a nice short meeting with only three things to talk about uh I think that's optimistic yeah I know I know me I'm trying to stick a poker in the fire here um but um okay well we can just go with that we'll have plenty of time to talk about these things um oh just just one one point of Interest the um I've just had an email from the CCRC saying that going to be really concentrating their efforts on checking out the composition and effects of of |
| 10:11 | buoyant flakes in in the lab which is nice for me and uh so great maybe there's nothing more to add about that then no yeah okay thanks that's a nice little snippet any other little Snippets of news that barely don't really matter um had a very positive conversation with the um Seafoods people um and their interest in but doing things with boy and Flakes and I have a another meeting coming up with them later in the week so that's positive say that now because I've got a daughter I'm gonna have to collect at |
| 10:49 | some point so I'll get a call and have to jump into the air and leave you all so I'm here when I get back I'll rejoin it right okay thank you for that thank you yeah and you're very much a a marine well I think of you as a marine biologist um Bruce was that about right no no no I would I'm I'm a generalist I'm generous completely generous deeply engaged in Earth system economics as I am in in that yeah in fact who knows anything about Bitcoin probably everybody knows a little bit uh |
| 11:23 | I I regret to say I know quite a bit about think about Bitcoin is that and Bitcoin by mining it and and my clever idea is that we should be able to make a coin by sequestering organic carbon so you should create money by doing the job you've got to do that way I think we can get everybody to Pile in there that's what I'm working on at the moment very interesting Crypt a sort of um carbon coin isn't that isn't that what they do in the ministry of the future for the future by Kim Stanley Robinson |
| 12:00 | um it's around that yeah it's it sounds very similar certainly the um similar things that we're involved in there is is um we're looking at a project for CERN too as an international center for climate change that's Geneva based which is very Ministry for the future yeah and we coined the phrase crypto carbon sadly there are many scammers uh trying to put uh options but I did like your use of coin the phrase yeah yes okay well I think uh let's stop so it's uh Sev no that's that's not good I want to |
| 12:48 | start with that you don't want to start with that all right we'll move it down where do you want to put it then Sev food okay good okay then so Mexican ban on solar engineering then would you introduce it again please Stephen uh Well everybody's heard about it uh The Mexican government uh who don't seem to know very much about the climate problem have just put a ban on everything and I suspect that about the other other governments suit uh um follow their steps and this would be very like the position that medical |
| 13:26 | profession exerted over vaccinations and anesthetics to begin with they were very hostile to it and that could do really a great deal of damage my decisions made by people who are completely ignorant of the problem Birds to the lemmings yeah and uh you know I'm beginning to feel glad that I'm 84 years old and probably won't live to see it you know because it if they're going to be as can as stupid as they are now for any length of time then we're in really terrible trouble the the government Department in the UK that's |
| 14:04 | in charge of this now they they took over from a very good Department called Tech now it's D Biz and uh they have put a ban on Communications from people doing research into geoengineering a ban on Communications yes I started off by finding out who who was responsible for the policy they left it on a PDF file and if you looked into the the engines of the PDF you could find out how it was and I wrote to her very friendly letter uh wanting to have a talk about things and I then got an email back saying that I mustn't send |
| 14:44 | any emails to any individuals it had to go to the inquiries desk and that if I sent them anywhere else I'd be blocked I wouldn't be able to so uh I did then from time to time and then I got an email saying that they weren't they're going to close the inquirer's desk and if I uh if I go if I send anything to them all I'd get was a list of all the government departments who telling people what they did which I didn't really want to know so it's it's difficult now to give a warning about an imminent danger |
| 15:20 | it's it's you know bearing your head in the sand yeah so that's a very interesting thing you said because Matthew Johnson at uh University of Copenhagen uh submitted a paper for review in nature and it was sent back uh saying this is a geoengineering topic it was an Isa methane reduction paper and I said this is geoengineering and uh that is not a suitable topic for discussion uh if you have a more abstract uh or scientific question to study then you may resubmit which is what he did removing all reference to |
| 16:01 | anything that apparently gave them the impression was geoengineering and that paper is supposed to be published around the next week or so but uh could have been published three months ago if that hadn't come up yeah yeah yeah um so it seems that as I've heard from someone the sort of very familiar with the political process uh recently who said that we we assume that they are very concerned about climate change and that you know Consulting with scientists and they're making their decisions based on science he said not a bit of it this |
| 16:35 | is politics uh and so it's a whole you know it's headless chickens but he didn't say that he said it's based on you know public perception and and um what was it uh how do you so things that have to be done quickly there's a word for it um time critical decision making um imperatives that sort of thing political imperatives and not really and no surprise that's no surprise to hear that not really based on sound science at all it's they're politicians they've got to think about getting uh elected |
| 17:13 | next time so it seems to me it's I don't think the world is full of it's nothing but rotten politicians it's the process that they're part of that evolved at a time when that's what that worked okay there weren't sort of um terrible catastrophes rating only waiting only a few years around the corner you know affecting the whole world and so it does seem that uh it's up to People Like Us and many others activist people to uh raise the political imperative among the public that geoengineering is is needed I thought it |
| 17:56 | was interesting from Jim Hanson the way he put it in which Robert Chris uh you know highlighted for me and quoted um which was uh that we need to uh was it reverse the current geoengineering that's being carried out by Humanity by the burning of fossil fuels which we've kind of said this before uh and uh so I thought he put it in a nice succinct way that it's the Jewish is already happening and that needs to be reversed already be done yeah if they're Geo Engineers that's right it's already well underway uh in |
| 18:34 | the wrong direction so yeah this this is we've said all this before um can I just clarify a point there yes please yeah Hanson did something which I had not seen before I mean I've certainly I've people have previously referred to uh human um emissions of greenhouse gases as a form of geoengineering but for those of us that were kind of in at the beginning of this Geo engineering discourse the the the definition that we have typically used um is the one that says that it is the um it geoengineering is the intentional |
| 19:11 | intention in the climate with a specific purpose of ameliorating the effects of climate change now handsome is deliberately not using that he's actually referring to the inadvertent and unintentional emission of carbon dioxide and greenhouse gases as a form of geoengineering and not only that he then goes on to say that we need to do solar radiation Management in order to offset the geoengineering so he's not even referring to solar solar radiation management as zero engineering exactly the opposite it's quite it to me |
| 19:51 | it's he's getting the right message across but he's doing it with language I think which most which many people will find quite confusing yeah the original quote that sort of we've lost you addresses this was in 1956 or physical at that time he called it experiment by putting all this CO2 in the atmosphere um so that's that came out in 1956 the statement that he made uh I can put a link in I'll find a thing and put a link in the chat here yeah thank you 56. in 1956. |
| 20:32 | you said you see you're saying Chris that that was from Hanson in 1956. no no this is Roger Ravel who was at the time I think the director of scripts Institute of oceanography and 1956 um 50 Manson was 15. exactly right they um a link that maybe of some use I'm not sure it's the full original Source but anyway yeah he he raised the whole issue then back in 56 has been we're carrying out to geophysical experiment he wasn't of course using Geo engineering that term hadn't been invented by then anyway yeah yeah so it seems to be |
| 21:10 | um well so there are people the people who have for a long time the etc's and others have been saying during engineering you know is evil uh and so that's well established and the voters it seems to be most voters don't have much time or it's very confusing for them to have all these different voices you know their work you know that's where they spend most of the time or bring up their families and so and politicians have learned to this is what where the word um sound bites comes from you know they know that they've |
| 21:47 | only got a 30 seconds or 10 seconds or something to get something across on the new on the news and they're they're well practiced at that whereas we spend most of our time working out what really needs to be done rather than studying how to communicate sound bites but we do have people among us who are dedicated to getting the message out and let's see we have Arya with us thank you for joining us Arya um yeah great to be here thank you hmm yeah it's great to have people like you here also and uh and we have mana mana Joe |
| 22:20 | who's also working on Outreach so that's my comment does anyone any other comments before we move on just on on that subject I haven't even listened to uh Al Gore sounding off at the Endeavors I've just put the link to the YouTube of him there he really gets going it's worth a listen if you haven't heard it thank you yeah I'll have a look at that but he's hostile to do your engineering as well or at least he was terminology it's very it's the wrong turn Roger would never use the term Geo engineering |
| 22:52 | I've written many times that uh you know we are going to manage our climates it is inconceivable that civilization would allow another Ice Age in the whole of the northern hemisphere to be covering those sheets we will prevent that we've just made a massive over correction at the moment we've demonstrated our power and capability what we're doing now is remedial work yeah okay remedial to the over correction yes yeah I I I had a question to the group um has anyone tried to reach out to scientists Rebellion I've been really |
| 23:32 | keying into their work lately and the amount of Outreach they're doing and I just can't help but feel if we could have some conversations with them it could really help in terms of PR uh was scientist Rebellion not actually very anti-geo engineering and the stuff have they made statements for anti-geo engineering I know that um they are getting the word out about where we're heading in terms of mass extinction um and I know that they are currently focused on uh our dependence on fossil fuels I know what they're focused on now |
| 24:17 | and also uh getting um you know defunding um you know making polluters pay things like that but uh I I would just think having some conversations with them uh might help open things up yeah I may be wrong because there's there's so many different groups with yeah yeah um one person I've said this before but I'll say it again who's done great Outreach work uh is Daphne weisham who's the chief executive methane action she's been around uh well she's known some of these people for decades |
| 24:59 | um she knows Bill McKibben and uh seems to have brought him around to the idea at least of methane depletion atmospheric methane depletion um and also Professor Michael Mann who is a very staunch anti-geo engineer in some of his books uh saying it's um there was an old lady who swallowed a fly you know and then uh she's she swallowed a spider to catch the fly and then in the end she eats a horse you know just each each solution is it's um solution to the previous problem is is a pro is a bigger problem and he's |
| 25:35 | saying that uh so he was saying that geoengineering is that well um I think some certainly some of us agree about some I won't go into it now because we've we've discussed it all before some geoengineering Solutions possibly are a bigger bigger problem um but does that mean every geoengineering problem any intention to uh to reverse the problem is going to be a bigger problem I don't think so that's not a huge problem it is catch-all term geoengineering because there is it is so different you know painting it was ruse |
| 26:08 | White is a little bit of expensive it's very very different to some of the schemes that are proposed yeah education in respect of benign climate restoration an extreme Geo engineering putting a great set of mirrors up into space with a view to shading the planet um what could go wrong with that the Reliance you might have when it all falls apart gets hit by an asteroidism um I have been gravitating towards the the phrase Earth shine lately and and how we um increase Earth shine just because I think it it sounds so beautiful and |
| 26:53 | innocuous and the more we can find appealing uh phrasing of course the better um but also I am I'm working on a short film right now that is uh there's a protesting I'm actually working on writing right now so I am planning on including uh these narratives into some other narratives that are part of the script um but in the process I am planning on uh reaching out and seeing if I can connect with scientist Rebellion as a part of our filmmaking process uh so you know to to be continued but I I have |
| 27:38 | been thinking that that could be a really powerful Ally if we can reach them in in terms of the cause and and opening up their their minds to emergency intervention in order to buy us more time to uh enact the policies that they're supporting I think the confidence of that is if they could be uh I I an important enemy too should they not go for uh geoengineering yeah the interesting thought that you know one of the great lives out there at the moment is net zero yeah 2050 which clearly is totally insufficient than a a non-solution and I |
| 28:23 | think that needs to be tackled agreed raise the ground to go in the right direction at a 100 percent uh you know the more we can focus on um you know negative emissions instead of Net Zero you know we really have to emphasize that uh very clearly I believe yeah uh it's it's a process strategizing what is going to reach an audience um you know have it how to frame it in a way where they know what they've got in the game and uh you know so so yeah that's that's working on that but it's pretty it's |
| 29:08 | it's uh I don't know how people can argue against what we're seeing here uh there are tipping points possibly already underway if not looming pretty close um and uh meanwhile CO2 emissions are increasing now people say oh yes but uh Renewables uh deployment that's increasing as well well um in some places yeah where it where where people have finally seemed to be getting to learn that there are good places to put Renewables like uh I think it's test uh Texas and California for win uh maybe Arizona for solar the North |
| 29:45 | Sea is great for wind but sorry to say this friends you could say the same thing uh Germany having spent was it a trillion Euros on their energy vendor you know their Renewables deployment still have had to restart lignite coal-fired power stations because of lack of energy but it wind doesn't blow very very much they they got their power from Russia yeah it's a mistake burning gas yeah and so look at these lovely wind turbines but try not to notice that we're burning so much gas which that seemed to work and so |
| 30:25 | um and so and with the state of uh carbon capture I mean there's a lot of excitement about this direct air catcher but it's a tiny tiny amount of what's needed and it's pretty energy intensive and so uh you know if you if you're not going to have Albedo enhancement if you're not going to Albedo enhancement you know brighten the planet Earth shine all this if you're not going to have the heat being reflected away from from the earth then what else are you going to do how are these tipping points going to be |
| 30:52 | uh uh avoided that's the question that I'd like to hear these people answer how they're tipping how are you going to avoid the Tipping points with your current policy of of rejecting geoengineering and casting it as evil yeah that that's exactly my point that's why it's hard for me to imagine not being able to get through to scientists and in scientist Rebellion because they're they're so focused on the science and I don't see science supporting that we are you have it you |
| 31:26 | know it's it's not accessible at this point to uh plan for a safe future without doing um increasing Earth Shine for instance yeah I think um so David David Helen car Wallace has had his hand up then you Robert David David are you there okay yeah um so I want to point out you know that uh there's a lot of good work on uh energy economics and climate economics that's often not read by by chemists or atmospheric scientists because you know the disciplines don't talk and the fact is the interesting |
| 32:08 | thing about Germany is their commitment to gas not completely misguided um but regardless imply that there were building plants that were going to last for 40 years right power plants depreciate over 40 years and the fact is there'll be a stranded asset no one's going to switch them off once they've been built every plant that's been built in India right now will be running for at least another 40 years um and unless the government takes extraordinary action and making us solely scientific discussion is not going to |
| 32:47 | change that therefore the scientific uh discussion needs to more be more in the direction you're talking about to say because of this issue you know there's a curve that we can draw to go into net zero even an ideal curve going to have zero that has to take in the account that ships ships have a lifetime of 20 years and power plants have a lifetime of 40 years and um you know um and that this needs to be part of thinking about that that's one way to get people who I consider are the bad guys um on our side as well |
| 33:27 | yeah thank you yeah Robert please yeah I I really would like to get sort of stuck into this subject I'm very conscious of the fact that for me this is very much in the third point on the agenda and I don't want to disrupt your planning of the meeting this is something I think it's going on for quite some time okay yeah this is what happens with these meetings Robert they they Meander around I'm happy to go for this but it might push your item two off the agenda and that would be a bit rude uh sorry what was item two let's just uh |
| 34:01 | have a look at um item two they they really do take on an item critical path I mean it maybe these are all they're all very much connected they're kind of very much connected anyway so I wouldn't worry about that rather I just go for it the this this issue for me has really come into focus in the last six months and particularly in the last couple of months and I'll just deal with two sources that have really had a huge impact on me in recent weeks one is the presentation that Tim Lenten did |
| 34:31 | um at an Nas workshop on tipping points last week um I'm very happy to send out the there's an it's all available on YouTube uh it's a 23 minute segment and frankly I think the only word that I can use to to sum it up is scary yeah genuinely scary and I've been reading about tipping points for some time but this really shook me and the second thing that has really made a huge impression on me is the recent warming in the pipeline paper by Jim Hansen now I'm not a climate scientist and so |
| 35:06 | I'm not competent to be independently critical of his work but if I take it at face value what he is saying is that the um the the equilibrium climate sensitivity that has for more than a century really since the time of Arenas been regarded as being three degrees Centigrade for a doubling of CO2 concentrations is first of all wrong and it probably should be more like four degrees and secondly and secondly it's irrelevant because it only takes into account the the fast feedbacks and doesn't take into |
| 35:53 | account the snap the so-called slow feedbacks and when you take those into account what Hansen is saying is that he he redefines it as Earth Systems sensitivity to make this distinction between the the previous term and his ESS he sets at 10 degrees Centigrade or a warming but for a doubling of of greenhouse gases and he now includes the whole bunch of greenhouse gases and he is saying we've already doubled it because um in pre-industrial times um there were it was primarily about carbon dioxide there wasn't that much |
| 36:30 | methane it was it wasn't that much nitrous oxide and there were there were no CFCs and if you now Bunch them all together we're at about 560 parts per million CO2 equivalents which is a doubling of the pre-industrial level so we're there so what he's saying is that we have now got baked in warming of 10 degrees and he's also saying interestingly that he has his concept of climate response time which is effectively the difference the time lag between the emissions pulses or the changes in the forcing and |
| 37:08 | the changes in temperature and what he's saying is that rather than being sort of a couple of decades as I see the tubing thoughts it's really more like a century so if we now have got um a doubling of the uh greenhouse gas concentrations so we've got baked in 10 degrees of 10 degrees Centigrade of warming of which so far we've only seen one in a bit there's quite a lot more to come through the system in the next decade and importantly because of the uh because of the offsetting effect of aerosols which have |
| 37:49 | historically uh significantly reduced the global warming impact of the greenhouse gases the rate of acceleration of global warming is going to increase in coming years because of the very effective International policies or reducing the pollution from the burning of fossil fuels particularly in the Marine sector and elsewhere so that that offsetting effect of the aerosols is reducing and therefore the underlying warm effect warming effects of the greenhouse gases is going to increase faster now okay fine so that's great so now we |
| 38:28 | that's that's on the on on the the baked in um warming potential so what's then happening when you when you when you lay that onto what uh Tim Lenten is saying is enough you know with one 100 degrees already of global warming in the can we're already seeing some quite severe global warming impacts which we don't need to to list now we all know what they are and that this is going to accelerate and as you said earlier uh Clive there are a number of these he actually lists five tipping points which are imminent and in |
| 39:05 | that in his terms means within a decade or two um and there are others that are not far behind and he also points to the fact that um there is this cascading effect so that although you might look at what the circumstances are that would trigger the onset of one Tipping Point you have to remember that um these uh singularities are such that the Tipping of one is very likely to accelerate the Tipping of others and you get a sort of dominant effect yeah so we are in a very very precarious situation now the the question this immediately |
| 39:41 | throws at me and in fact it's something that Hanson very gently and almost imperceptibly um nodded at was that no amount of tinkering around with the carp with with the carbon budget whether it's reducing emissions or removing greenhouse gases is going to reduce the temperature quickly enough to avoid the Tipping points so now what we've got is a situation where Net Zero is yeah I mean it has to be done Nets area is important for the long-term uh equilibrium of the climate but it is not we're not going to get to |
| 40:23 | enjoy our successes are not going to be get to enjoy that equilibrium unless in very short order we create the circumstances whereby that can happen and that can only happen if we actually limit the calling to not much more sorry limit the warming but not not much more than is there already and preferably enhancements terms reduce it back to where it was in pre-industrial level so actually get rid of the one degree of warming that's already happened and this has got to be done quickly because of because the Tipping points are not |
| 40:56 | waiting you know they're not waiting they're going to happen and the arithmetic is to put it plenty that the only way that you can avoid those tipping points is to literally call the planet and that means you have to do Albion enhancement or increase Earth shine or brighten up whatever whatever term you want to use but we have to do that in very short order and at scale in order to overcome this very long climate response time that Hanson has pointed to and that now is the is the central issue it isn't that we need to replace albino |
| 41:33 | enhancement um it's not that we need to replace uh Net Zero with albino enhancement we have to do both simultaneously because the Albedo enhancement is is to deal with the immediate urgent issue of preventing the Tipping points tipping and the net zero is necessary for our well some of you you're young enough to have kids or and in my case grandkids for them to have a climate that is stable enough for them to enjoy the kind of life that we've enjoyed and that is why now I have I've really changed my my tone completely and |
| 42:13 | the point that Clive opened up with about methane it is not that um I think that removing me for methane from the atmosphere is is a bad idea quite the country I think it's a very good idea and we should certainly we should certainly not um uh we should certainly do what we can to to reduce the emissions of ethane but the argument here is that it's all about time it's like you know the art of Comedy it's all in the timing as I keep saying and and and and the problem is that even though in theory |
| 42:46 | the reduced me reducing methane uh atmospheric methane will significantly reduce uh rapidly reduce the carbon budget because of the climate response time you don't get the benefit of that quickly enough to make a difference to the onset of the Flight of the Tipping points so yes we should be doing it but it's now become a second order priority because everything needs to focus mostly well everything we need to do both but we need to put the emphasis much more onto our in Albedo enhancement and de-emphasize the the carbon uh the |
| 43:24 | carbon management and thank you very much there's an interesting thing about tipping points is that it is the deviations from the mean values in both directions which are causing damage we're guessing terrible floods after terrible droughts and we're guessing very very cold things after very very hot things but for longer times okay it's happening for two or three weeks rather than two or three days another uh thing is that the period of a lot of instability if you think about balls in in Bowls the the the the |
| 44:03 | the lengthening of the period is an indication that you are approaching a Tipping Point yeah that's that is happening uh it is it is a warning that you're near something where it is going to go to being flat instead of being concave it doesn't interrupt you there Stephen in the in the um session that I refer to that Tim Leonard did last week he has a superb little graphic to illustrate that point I'll put a link into the into the chat yes all this um for this talk right it's a 23 minutes |
| 44:36 | put that I've added that link I will be starting at Hansen's oh sorry at lenten's uh contribution it's 23 minutes and it is really worthwhile watching I recommend it to you yes I agree foreign it's slightly off topic but it's it's very relevant I think in a way because it comes back to this economic issue that was mentioned earlier and it's interesting that uh that Ron baiman is in the in the session he may well have a view about this but and I was reading today um very quickly something from the the |
| 45:16 | world economic Forum in Davos and they're now got this big focus on the green agenda and one of the things that they said about I have to say I laughed was that by 2050 we have got to have increased our Energy Efficiency by 50 in other words for every dollar of GDP we use half as much energy as we do today now I laughed because historically there has been a positive trend in Energy Efficiency since the data goes back 200 years and it is um of the order of um two percent random I mean it's in that order so even if you just did what |
| 45:57 | has happened historically by 2050 you'd probably be somewhere at that level anyway so there's no big change but the other thing that they don't mention in this was of course that this opposes that uh GDP doesn't change between now [Laughter] so uh you know and there's no economic growth the issue that I I have huge difficulties with and I'd be really interested to hear Ron's view on this is that I think that we are now in a situation where any any and I mean any meaningful response to climate change at |
| 46:33 | the speed and scale it is necessary is going to inevitably have huge uh and long lasting and dramatic consequences to the global economy and I can't see how you can avoid it but by by are you saying by calling by doing Albedo enhancement that's going to have a big effect on the economy is that what you're saying I didn't quite understand the last part I think anything that is done at the scale that's necessary is going to have a huge impact on anything okay yeah all right and this point about this point about |
| 47:06 | the that was made earlier on about um you know the uh the small scale of um of of direct air capture and so on and so forth and Renewables but interesting fact from the last 200 years of energy production is that never never as any new energy source done anything other than to fuel economic growth no new energy has ever displaced a legacy energy so today unbelievably the world Burns as much wood as fuel as it did 200 years ago all right it's a very much smaller percentage of total energy production but we still burn as much wood it's not |
| 47:52 | the wood wasn't displaced by the coal you still do it all the coal wasn't wasn't displaced by the oil and so on the grafts are really clear and the you just have to think eighty percent of energy is still produced from fossil fuels and to remove that and get down to you know half of it even let alone ten percent remove in in the next 30 Years I mean it is just fanciful that is not going to happen unless there is a major cataclysm in the in the global economy okay yeah thank you Robert we've got four |
| 48:27 | hands up right now um that's fantastic we've just said very well said um Chris please yeah I was just going to come back just a bit before um Robert got on just to mention that and a quick look on the Sardis Rebellion website and their solution to the climate change is a degrowth of the economy globally significant degrowth so I'm not sure that they seem to be very amenable towards any type of geoengineering by the look of it but anyway just that's for your information and the other thing which I saw today |
| 49:00 | term Al Gore said at the um Davis because um The Daily males reported him as giving an unhinged rant about environmental threats um in this talk and I haven't seen the talk but I've only just uh had seen some Snippets about it I put the link he said something that it was you know things are going to get bad and I think he was saying we're we're probably heading for about 2. |
| 49:23 | 8 degrees Centigrade or something at the minute something of that order I think so uh anyway that's just a couple of bits of information that uh great thank you yes okay tomorrow's the first group that you mentioned um what was the first group that you mentioned that you mentioned scientist Rebellion it had come up in a previous meeting um I don't know a month or two ago probably before Christmas maybe speech I did see it um us from January 18th in Dallas yeah I'm not surprised the Daily Mail is headlined for it because uh we know |
| 50:01 | they're very um anti or basically climate denies pretty much in the UK and they've been very uh thing to do with climate yeah thank you um Robert tulip please okay so going back to the uh Mexico uh ban and uh arya's suggestion of linking with uh scientists Rebellion um I've just really been really thinking about this this whole strategic context and the the reason the uh the underlying reason as I'm seeing it now for why there is such hostility to uh to geoengineering is that people see that |
| 50:49 | the biggest uh problem facing the world is actually inequality and that the politics of um inequality is is seen as something that would be supported by geoengineering and uh and so like I mean my view has been that it will be essential to somehow uh cooperate with the uh the fossil fuel industry in order to implement geoengineering programs but the the general perception is that that would just um be a way of uh increasing and enhancing inequality and uh which is just something that's totally unacceptable to uh the |
| 51:39 | um the community who who see uh the uh inequality as um um as uh as as the key problem so I I put a link to uh oxfam's um recent publication on uh taxing the rich and to see that the trouble is that if you if you say to the capitalist system that you know really the main thing we need to do is uh increase taxes on rich people in order to uh to fund uh geoengineering programs then uh that's uh not going to get much sympathy from them uh and and yet uh uh I would say that that's that's really got to be you |
| 52:30 | know a crucial part of it you know where does the money come from to to fund uh geoengineering programs that's all yeah thanks Robert uh uh John listen please yeah uh yeah um I think what we need is education uh to show that uh cooling uh will have benefits for everybody it will uh it'll help economies rather than hinder them uh or or make them worse uh it will increase uh biodiversity or at least sustain existing biodiversity by protecting and perhaps restoring ecosystems um it will reduce the amount of |
| 53:23 | suffering already from droughts and floods and things around the world which haven't yet really hit very hard in the in the rich richer countries that's changing so there's a potentially a huge social Tipping Point as people realize that their lives their own lives are going to be affected are being affected uh by the climate change from temperature rise and so uh the uh according to um Sean Fitzgerald he showed a girl with people 50 50 uh Pro and auntie um geoengineering it's it could be tipped a little bit |
| 54:21 | towards Pro and we could start a big movement um I think we we've got a chance to push very hard this year and uh Robert uh Chris you're quite right that was a huge urgency and that's been uh Missing I've been trying to promote this idea that it's actually extremely urgent to do the cooling especially in the Arctic uh so uh I've I've put kind of five years to start to um to stop um Arctic warming and 10 years to stop global warming uh there's kind of sensible targets but I mean that's |
| 55:14 | that's good that of course assumes you can ramp up SO2 stratospheric aerosol including very quickly and I've seen no obstacle to that from on the paper that's written about injection at uh 60 degrees north so we could be at a Tipping Point at a social Tipping Point where suddenly um coding technology becomes uh unacceptable thing and and something needs to be done quickly for the sake of all ourselves our children and our grandchildren okay thank you John yeah I'd just like to ask the previous set of speakers going back to Robert |
| 56:12 | Chris if I was to take that section out and make it because these videos are unlisted on YouTube so very very few people see them uh would anyone object if I took out took out that section and put it on YouTube as as a perhaps a little introduction at the beginning and said that this is scientists or learned people uh speaking any objections at all okay thank you very much um Ron please run byman thank you uh I'm just I'm just trying to respond to some of Robert Chris's three points Point Center though it's like a |
| 56:54 | few people back but um I I think the um we we have ways to generate enough energy I mean it's not it's it it is a it is a massive transition problem it probably will take a long time especially without a global governance system to to to uh you know speed it up uh but it can be done I mean they're you know there even the ocean itself that you know I mean there's calculations that it could generate uh about 60 percent more energy than we're current using from all sources just the heat the |
| 57:27 | accumulated heat in the ocean so so I don't think and and it um what do you think about his point Ron let me ask what do you think Robert's point that no particular energy source has ever reduced you add more you know newer and a nice new energy source on but it doesn't get rid of the previous one it doesn't displace the previous one ever what do you think about that point except for whale oil yeah I'm not I'm not so I know you know you know we don't use we don't you know I mean it's it's |
| 57:56 | uh it's uh uh which which is basically you know we're feeding the horses and they're giving us okay not always true so you're pointing out horses and someone said whale oil as well yeah yeah yeah yeah so I I mean I it's something that has to happen I mean we realize that you know we can't we have to close the carbon cycle so yeah so you were saying something else Ron uh yeah uh uh well I I think the the the the the the the problem that we all agree on this stuff you know the problem is timing we |
| 58:26 | have to cool now to you know if we're ever going to get to that promised land on the other side of renewable energy renewable materials and and and I mean it's not just the climate thing as many of us point out it's a it's a natural uh you know it's an it's a it's a nature thing as well we're destroying nature and we have to start rejuvenating nature and a lot of the capture can be done naturally uh so that that goes hand in hand but that's a long-term problem that's the long-term problem in the |
| 58:53 | short term we have to cool now one question I uh I Jim uh Lenten in the past has been very reluctant to talk about cooling uh and I'm just wondering if in this recent presentation as SE changed his uh his position on that because in the past I mean uh yeah I I'm sure I'm not the only one that's tried to sort of ask him if he would you know uh support uh cooling uh or you know but uh Tim Lenten so can you answer that Robert cool um he didn't address any issue of solutions he was only talking about the |
| 59:31 | climate you know about the Tipping points themselves and and their relationship and the history and yeah and the future he wasn't talking about ways of avoiding them that might be quite wise just talk about one thing at a time well he yeah what he yeah it's a little bit because he I mean well I've heard him say what we need emissions reduction I mean at the end of his talks you know we need this is why we need dramatic emissions you know and then I just you know it just it just seems like you know |
| 59:59 | he's he's not he's not he's in the he's in the sort of uh the delusionary land of the of the uh you know the the the the global community on climate I mean he he won't he won't stray from that but you know maybe I mean Hansen has come out and you know so you know there I I can see there might in the future some of these folks may may uh you know start start calling you know start speaking out for what's really something else yeah yeah um on the on the other on the on the Mexico thing I just wanted to I mean |
| 1:00:33 | uh apparently uh as far as I know Mexico has not prohibited uh the effort I mean they've come out with the press release but there hasn't been any contact with the uh make make sunsets in terms of you know seasoned desist or anything like that and and I'm a little because they they didn't really do anything that's harmful you know it's not like it their intentions that they could claim you know if you do this at scale it will be harmful they could you know but but just doing something you know using a weather |
| 1:01:05 | balloon with a little bit of sulfur in it uh based on existing uh regulations and stuff I don't think is is prohibited so I I don't know what the you know but I I uh that that you know and whether it probably I think they prob uh you know they realize I mean I've had some contact with Luke and so forth you know that you know that it's um it's uh it would probably be wise to uh to to to to to let people know what they're what they're doing beforehand and not to not to ruffle feathers as |
| 1:01:37 | much as possible but I don't know it's still an open question question as to whether where and how and when this this effort will uh will proceed yeah thank you uh Arya please hi yes um I just had Frozen my hands to address the issue about income inequality um in relationship to fossil fuels uh because I really see the fossil fuel industry as fueling a lot of that inequality especially when you're looking at the amount of subsidies that are you know tax dollars around the world that are going to fossil fuel |
| 1:02:17 | companies while they're uh you know killing nine million people every single year um and the climate crisis obviously is affecting the poor uh far more greatly than uh it is the the wealthy in terms of homelessness and how you can deal with the impacts of rising food costs and water shortages uh the wealthy will be able to handle those issues while the poor will not and these are very uh you know these are things that are happening right now and will be growing around the corner so I I see a great Danger when it comes to aligning ourselves with |
| 1:03:02 | those companies that have been largely escalating uh inequality um just wanted to yeah speak to that I know I have some comments as well that are in the chat uh but I just feel like it's a really important issue for us to keep in mind as we develop strategy yeah thanks Arya um if I just briefly say what I notice people doing is uh they they'll have an agenda like inequality I mean I'm you could see that disagree with what you said in the inequality meant many economists say inequality is a bad thing |
| 1:03:41 | you know I think it's a bad thing as well um however if it's used to if if those you know campaigners against inequality use climate change as a vehicle to sort of piggyback their agenda which is reduce inequality and say no no we you know you can't do this you can't fix a climate because that isn't going to fix inequalities it's going to make it worse so don't fix the climate that this is a problem I see um I don't understand the reasoning behind that how would someone think China |
| 1:04:15 | we had we had people who said uh you know we we need to raise funds so we can get these tests done and they say oh no money no no no no no our agenda is to get rid of money because money is the source of the problem here it didn't really get us anywhere you know and so we kind of moved on from that so sometimes I do think that people use they have they have their agenda and then they use climate or some other big thing that that's got a lot of energy behind it uh to say no no no that doesn't support our agenda so you know |
| 1:04:47 | you've got to do this first or well it's two are somehow piggybacked um that's that's very interesting and there are some big ideas that could make sense if we could just go back and reinvent uh Society um and we have to figure out what actually we we can do um and getting rid of money just seem like something we'll be able to do tomorrow yeah uh or even Reinventing Society I'd like to see that too I mean I'm still trying you know I mean I I don't think we should completely throw |
| 1:05:26 | in the towel on that but at the same time we have to uh figure out how we can handle an emergency situation absolutely thank you uh Arya if we're going to move on to uh um okay thank you Robert yes we very much should so let's wrap this up there's I think there's two more people with their hands up and yes thank you for reminding me of that Robert so let's have Chris because we could go on the whole meeting on this uh Chris and then Robert Chris so Chris Vivian uh first please if you've uh oh you've taken your henna so |
| 1:06:01 | I think Robert crisp you know I mean uh these These are My Hot Topics these subjects uh I would be really interested to have a whole separate session on equality and inequality both within the present generation and with regard to Future Generations because I think that it is a really uh important topic and it is far from straightforward I should point out that I did my Masters on intergenerational Justice in relation to climate change so uh it's something I I feel um that really is important and it's really |
| 1:06:36 | it's really challenging and um I think that we need to uh just take a step back and and look at it carefully because otherwise I think it's very easy to um jump to the wrong conclusions not that there are any easy conclusions no no well uh set up your own set up a meeting uh Robert invite people see see you might get a lot of people coming on yeah thank you uh Chris Vivian your hand went away and has come back yeah I've been dropping in and out because my uh internet's a bit unstable so yeah okay good um yeah I just wanted |
| 1:07:11 | to come back a bit to following on for more Robert tulip said and also Aria the issue of inequalities and so on and I think that's uh it is very important and I think it's one aspect for example of why we had the uh lost and damage issue at cop24 and where the countries from the third world were very insistent about that because they feel very strongly about this inequality with respect to that um and also um and also really we're going to find out yeah uh Chris has been kind of coming back after a few seconds |
| 1:07:49 | that's really okay well we've got the sentiment of it are you back again yeah we lost you yeah please finish off yeah yeah I didn't think I dropped off though yeah you might have to repeat what your last few words because we missed it oh dear that was not the Russians um right I think we'll have to move on maybe maybe put a note in the chat um the last few words yeah yeah right so so I'm gonna have to make a decision here and uh go back to this right so Sev right you nearly lost it again document |
| 1:08:34 | can you put up that document oh um which one because uh Chris came back on it did you send it one yeah I know but did you send an updated version no I said I wouldn't I'd leave it as it was as it was okay uh so let's see if I can find it uh uh no it consensus towards no consensus towards so we go hmm now I hope that anyone with their own statements would put them into the chat so we can do them one at a time because we only got about 20 minutes left I'd like to go through this maybe fairly quickly right Point by point to |
| 1:09:27 | see whether there's a general agreement on on each of the points or not perhaps if you go through them all and then say yes no yes no and then go back to the ones where we we need discussion okay uh so you want me to go through the points one by one you would uh starting here with statements not with the aims then tokens are aims a reason for and against whether it's supported by super majority of attendees so the statements carefully constructed climate interventions are the only way we may be able to avert the worst |
| 1:10:08 | results of anthropogenic global warming so what are you saying you want to see a show of hands here is there any strong objection to that maybe sort of hands up or something like that or just speak up yep no objection uh next one ah yep no I I was just going to say um I've because of my internet problems I'll probably not try and intervene a lot in this discussion but I've already given um Sev a lot of comments and including on this particular point so um I I would don't do not withdraw my comment I think |
| 1:10:42 | carefully constructed is the wrong phraseology that as I've indicated to in my comments to Sev already briefly what do you say instead of carefully constructed uh I said just a moment I agree with you carefully and carefully and thoroughly investigated carefully and thoroughly investigated okay I didn't think constructive is a very useful term okay that seems perfectly sensible to me uh okay let's so let's move on thank you for that uh greenhouse gas emission reduction and even the achievement of |
| 1:11:16 | immediate net zero emissions is now insufficient to avert the escalation of a climate crisis into one that threatens civilization and the global biosphere with destruction uh to say nothing of the economy in the lives of future Generations so the greenhouse gas emission reduction even the achievement of of uh Net Zero is insufficient to avert the escalation of climate crisis into threatening and future Generations any objections to that the only comment which I made to say was to offer the word biosphere put |
| 1:11:49 | as we know it the biosphere is not going to be doomed it will be exist albeit in a very different form and I'm happy with that change okay and Clive you are added in the word net before zero but serves a statement is immediate zero emissions which is a a complete cessation of combustion which is really a slightly absurd um but one that's important okay I didn't even know I did that okay immediate Net Zero okay thank you for uh pointing that out anything else can I do the words the last phrase to say nothing or is that actually |
| 1:12:32 | necessary isn't that isn't that actually less worse than what's already been has spoken out in the previous phrase I I think that doesn't add anything I would just delete it okay delete that okay you've made you're making worth obviously we're good you've got this uh recording do you want to make those changes as we go along uh not especially because I want to have okay okay that means I've got to mess about here um I could do all right let's let's think about doing that uh |
| 1:13:06 | um I've got to bring this thing back uh always show rhythms because I don't know how to do it without the ribbon so we're gonna do that there actually that's uh yeah deleted um atmosphere as we know it we might yeah yeah and this was carefully what was this carefully uh investigated investigated yeah if that is that it then anything else net net zero no can I just say you don't need Net Zero in there Net Zero is less because you're the way you've written this it's Net Zero makes it less |
| 1:13:50 | powerful yeah okay it's even harder to get immediate zero isn't it exactly and thoroughly investigated oh yeah yeah I would leave it as immediate zero because you're making another thing and even if you got to immediate zero which is more difficult you're right Robert yeah so leave it like that okay next one most of the better known and publicized climate interventions have either poor prospects by way of scalability cost Effectiveness timeliness resource requirements disruptiveness meeting good |
| 1:14:26 | risk management practice interaction with other prospective methods reversibility Equity governability or side effects good and bad or are simply likely to be not as good as some other conceptual methods what else what's the point of that statement it's basically saying um deck and Bex are not going to save us nor is I think you should say that I think to say most of the better known and publicized is too vague well let's add Ed after those afterward interventions add brackets DAC backs deforestation |
| 1:15:08 | yeah the background message here is a support for Albedo enhancement and saying that Albedo enhancement has a better cooling return on investment than carbon-based climate policies it should be aforestation uh sorry uh yeah thank you yeah okay and I would put in before that just the EG for example yeah yep so what's the point of this shouldn't be done or why why is this here yeah it doesn't I think that's absolutely the question what exactly is the point you're trying to make here we need to |
| 1:15:49 | because it needs to be is that what the ipcc and everyone pretty much is talking about is almost irrelevant the the solutions are Albedo enhancement and a few other things is it is this can I say is this number three really just an amplification of the point you've made in number two about immediate immediate Net Zero immediate zero not being enough because all of these are effectively ways of of reducing uh carbon that's easier this is just a detail subordinates I think people need to have more than just that of two two that they |
| 1:16:35 | won't work through all the ramifications of it well I might be tempted to say as part of point two for example attack beckson and forestation but there are there are distraction they're not going to do it yep okay so it's words of that effect so can I put here um make if you if you if you do want to put this it's an expansion of 0. |
| 1:17:03 | 2 yes yeah and I think uh presenting it in this either or um grammar is uh quite confusing for readers um so I I would um delete the uh either the word either and and similarly the word or okay and instead of uh and uh or are simply likely to be not as good I think uh it would be better to put compared to and I don't know I don't see that the word conceptual uh is uh is a very helpful word either other conceptual which is a good idea but useless in practice yeah conceptual some of them have they've just totally failed they're just |
| 1:17:58 | a theory but why not saying why not be direct and say cooling cooling methods direct cooling methods yeah is that okay uh Sev yeah good enough calling methods okay next so yeah not some other but just correct sorry yeah right okay right the better Albedo uh sorry the better Albedo enhancement or direct climate cooling methods are likely to be amongst the best tourniquet candidates to contain advert contain adverse and escalating climate effects and so we can reduce excessive levels of greenhouse gases over a longer |
| 1:18:55 | period by combination of greenhouse gas removal and mitigation grass gas removal may also be done using plasma torches powered by spare renewable energy to split methane emissions free blue green hydrogen on demand and cost offsetting Nano carbon products can I suggest you delete the word the second word better in fact start the sentence starting with Albedo enhancement okay with that Sev yep yeah okay anything else please also replace mitigation with emission reduction because um it's a deeply confusing to uh to |
| 1:19:53 | maintain school and does not mitigate that's not no problem right anything else okay there is little need for us to develop a costly inefficient and hazardous hydrogen transportation and storage infrastructure as existing natural gas and high voltage direct current methods would together perform the functions better oh what's this what's this doing here I didn't see the relevance of this can lead it's it's um well it is it is a a important way of getting to a a low-carbon economy but if you |
| 1:20:41 | feel it's a not really hasn't been discussed in this forum though no but yeah that's a very good point we haven't really talked very if we have then very very little this hasn't received just put much airtime we'll just discuss later at the end of it uh yeah it's not relevant because this is a specific type of thing that you would get to coming out your work on this um group I think it doesn't need to be okay yeah but we haven't really discussed this much uh Sev so I think most people want |
| 1:21:22 | this gone so it's absolutely right but we haven't talked about it much so we'll put in caps at the at the end of it discuss later or exclude here discuss later I I just want to ask that you know the impacts of natural gas be included at the source of extraction um and not only when it's burning um because I just it's hard for me to imagine I could possibly be a solution official but it's already being used and it is the natural gas people uh supporting us provided it's all only done to split to |
| 1:22:06 | produce uh emissions free hydrogen the the alisso canyon leak that happened that went on for months and months did so much damage to the planet I don't even know how it's calculable as well as other kinds of leaks and the impacts on Water Supplies Etc it's just dangerous yeah true we don't want to get into the weeds too much we'll discuss that next time maybe this is Frank so please don't feel under attack from this because it's a very helpful uh idea and uh you know you put yourself in the foreign |
| 1:22:55 | to a list like this they'd want it to be you know reasonably um you know relevant and representative of the conversations we've had here so I think that's that's what the thing is against that no I don't think many people would disagree with you but but anyway we'll leave it behind because we're going to leave that there so it's properly highlighted there in that way so I think you you'll know that you're not it's not going to go down well if that stays in yeah discuss later |
| 1:23:26 | all right okay okay discuss later that's how you spell discussions like that thank you I thought you were being getting into your kind of not intentionally no uh right next uh greener's gas removal methods are likely to be faster acting uh more cost effective and less disruptive than this rapid mitigation so this is again you mean uh emissions reduction yeah reduction um yeah uh except where renewable energy is replacing fossil fuels this is my first uh encounter with you guys in this session but I find this |
| 1:24:15 | document very confusing I'm not quite sure what its purpose is and what it spoke what its focus is supposed to be all right so let's let's go let's go to the beginning uh so this document is a working paper from which it's hoped a climate intervention strategy with broad consensus might be forthcoming it will contain sorry it will consist of a series of statements or strategies most of which have at times already been considered by the discussion group and have at least received some support reasons for and |
| 1:24:44 | against each statement and whether it is supported by a super majority of attendees say more than 79 they're recording and further action are matters for the group so I think I said last time when Seb brought this forward I said there are other groups who have elicited solicited should I say ideas from many of us here and they put together a very nice document that lists all our technical ideas and their you know promoting that um in various circles uh to get people to listen and be aware of our Solutions |
| 1:25:20 | so and and so Sev is doing that for us well in a slightly different way and first of all getting us to agree with getting us to together on a document I just said what do what do we actually think we've had a lot of chat um over sort of two years but let's write down what we think so I think it's a step in a it's a good uh move um um actually you've done this you tried this a bit before Sev so this is your second attempt to get us to to be organized so again I think you know good for you for doing that |
| 1:25:54 | um right so what are we going to say about this uh greenhouse gas removal methods like to be faster acting than Mission reduction yeah this introduction is going to be hard right and slow and because there's so much industry in it at the moment yeah any thoughts can be done quite fast by some of the methods right things that you've talked about removal up here didn't you uh and said that without even that's not really going to help much but then you've said enough yeah but it's it's should it's second to um |
| 1:26:30 | direct Cooling in importance and urgency right any other thoughts should this stay here or be a momentum or just leave it as it is what I'd like to do is to move a point nine which is still about SRM yeah to uh up to to um we've got a lot to do here before perhaps yeah like the the order doesn't doesn't matter we can play around and group things later I'm just trying to get individual statements which are are useful in which we agree on uh the point is that uh We've we've said that we've got to have some Cooling |
| 1:27:18 | uh so if we continue talking about how to get the cooling is a kind of logical progression and then you can say uh that some methods of removal actually increase Albedo and uh so they can they can act as double whammy good Whammy and then we can talk about things like energy use which is relevant to uh the CO2 situation rather than the uh temperature situation all right I feel we're getting right into the weeds here yeah sorry about that it's all right uh and so I don't think we're going to finish this |
| 1:28:06 | um till next time the rest of it yeah but it's urged people to to make their own statements which which I I you know I haven't done and which people think are important so we can add those to the bottom of this list right what do you mean you haven't done you you haven't urged people or you are Urgent shouldn't be a single person thing yeah a lot of a lot of the people here will have other important statements yeah which should be included okay and you're providing a kind of you know leadership and coordinating role |
| 1:28:45 | here to get people's statements together I mean uh this is the classic you know management by committee isn't it uh but uh but that's what this is this is It's a group of people and we assume that we are better as as one rather definitely better talking now talking for at least fortnightly people tend to fight when writing to each other you know that's my point um so yeah great great idea it's it's a very good beginning um and I said please feel free to send it around uh oh yeah I'll I'll save this |
| 1:29:20 | I'll send it around after this meeting so the the whole group and the great thing is had a bit of air time people had a chance to look had a chance to think and so yeah please you know we're saying yeah have a look at it see what you have to say whatever you've got five minutes to spend having a look or 10 minutes uh two people did go through it very thoroughly Chris Vivian and gave his comments back to you and and Akim uh also had some things to say and so we don't want to be too shy here it's you |
| 1:29:47 | people need to just say what there is to say uh we can't be too worried about hurting people's feelings obviously you need to be polite um and make it about the the issue itself the issues themselves not not about Sev who's who's uh stepping forward to manage this um and perhaps off to him for doing that okay that that and that nearly takes the stuff it's like any other comments or anything um Mana you've got your hand raised manner please yeah I just want to be sure that somebody please save the chat and send that |
| 1:30:19 | around as well I think you usually do but I I really want to look into a few things that were mentioned today uh okay thank you Manis I'm happy for people to send me the chat John often does that which thank you very much John I mean it's it Zoom does a pretty good job it gives me a file of all the chats in the folder when it saves the you know the recording and I just paste that in make it a little bit shorter a bit easier to read but basically that's what I do uh so yeah you'll get the chat Mana uh and thank |
| 1:30:52 | you everyone for your contribution this evening it's all over too soon um but uh and that I won't be able to do anything about uh your um you know contribution Robert I've feel like calling it a speech it's fantastic what you said I thought and then we had some great um uh comments afterwards as well so I really think that was very very powerfully said so that was going through my mind let's make that a a separate thing let's see what happens on YouTube does anyone manage does anyone have a YouTube channel I mean we know |
| 1:31:25 | people that do have their own YouTube channel uh this isn't really a YouTube channel because it's not even public does anyone know anyone that's would like to use that uh we might send it to the scientists warning people or they call themselves now unfortunately they lost uh Stuart Scott didn't they when he died uh but then it was his channel before facing future I think he called it anyway okay that's it folks it's it's we've had our 90 minutes thanks once again thank you and see you again in a couple of weeks |
| 1:32:00 | [Music] bye-bye in just a second without the risk of losing everything ago hi Brian greetings did you did you want to talk about anything at all I'm fine thank you good to see everyone today yeah great to see you too Brian missed you at the beginning I thought hey what's happened to Brian I actually got a little sleep you got a little sleep finally thanks for waking up for us sorry yeah it all cut up on me I think it's starting at six in the morning which is fine the sun's already up okay I'm glad to hear you finally got some |
| 1:32:55 | sleep Brian you've been very busy I guess so you need to keep healthy Brian please I will do Brian said you want to talk to me no you're you're shaking your head but you're on mute so I'm taking that as a no you're on mute I can't hear you but I think that's a no no you can't hear me yeah okay class if you have not nothing not not at length there's always things for us to talk about I appreciate your emails you sent around recently we have a lot to say to people but we want to |
| 1:33:37 | think about that first uh don't we think about what we're going to say to to people with our ideas yeah yeah okay so I'm going to sign off everybody if you want to talk to each other you're welcome to I can just leave it running but um yeah actually I mean I think one bit that I should mention is that we got a chance to outline a multi-million dollar program on retrieving the Arctic with CCRC and others and I'm hoping to produce such an outline this month we'll see how that goes is that with is that with SRM is that with |
| 1:34:12 | the stratospheric aerosol um Brian well I think we need to rebrite Marine clouds we need to at least outline the experiment and work with some GCM modelers yeah but if anyone knows any Global Climate modeling uh resources we should probably uh explore what's possible yeah yeah I mean for fans and I and people were associated with now uh are you know recommending our use of to uh TOA and with the edara which is an aerosol it's very flexible easy to make and make it 100 nanometers it can be produced from almost anything you know |
| 1:34:53 | at ships aircraft land stations um and if it's aircraft yeah so it's it's it's it stands for titanium oxide aerosol but it's only it's not only titanium oxide uh it's silicon oxide as well and aluminum chloride to add a flocculent uh I think we haven't really presented it properly to this group we I made a presentation about six months ago to uh the one of the other groups was it hpac I can't remember one of those other groups which they recorded but then then it disappeared after |
| 1:35:28 | it's gone now that recording seems to be not there on Vox so when reading the public I would just encourage using the pigments from white paint which include titanium dioxide or sunscreen also has tio2 yeah we do say that yeah it's it's yeah we we need to say and Arya actually gave some feedback at the time and said wow you know but this is if it's acidic what about that but we actually did quite a lot of calculations after that we've done a lot of work on it uh last year uh to calculate levels of acidity |
| 1:36:04 | um I'd still like to add in actually uh use Steven's Steve is very generous he's given the calculations for marine Cloud brightening some of those will apply to TOA because it's basically water it makes water droplets that's what clouds are provides cooling uh and so often what's missing is simply just the the particles on which the droplets fall a form um so that's and we're a little bit surprised we put that to Sean Fitzgerald we said we've got people um with contact in high places and and what |
| 1:36:37 | did they think absolutely no reply none at all nothing back from um yeah I'm looking for Global Climate modeling resources these are digital in America I understand yeah uh um friends if you have any thoughts on yeah where we can um appeal to GCM in addition to my alma mater at Princeton uh that's going to be a key task going forward yeah do you know I don't think it really we're we don't do you know France global climate modelers yep I'm sure you're familiar with I'm sure you're familiar with androbes and it |
| 1:37:19 | seems that this is something that they have missed just being able to calculate uh cooling Technologies uh if they could be appealed to to help and integrate that into their system I think that would be helpful but I don't know if that's relevant to you or not Brian no no go on yeah yeah I missed the name of the organization and Roads uh en and then it's a dash and then roads um it's a digital climate modeling uh platform essentially where you just put things into the system and it it feeds it back out to you but I believe that |
| 1:38:03 | they have some missing parts to their existing um infrastructure for that uh climate lot alone resource online uh but I know other people who've talked about trying to entreat them to expand their modeling I believe Leslie was talking about trying to do that and communicate with him about that and I think it was Leslie okay where is nroads based or where do they do there you know I really wish I could remember this right right off the top of my head but they are affiliated with it with a university I believe and |
| 1:38:41 | I'm just trying to remember exactly which one um I I have the link somewhere uh if if I can find it before the number to call I'll put a chat otherwise no it's it's right there okay perfect it's under climate Interactive it's it's I found it there the N roads climate solution simulator there it is if you know anyone there or maybe Leslie does I I think Leslie does you know I'll put some more more thought into it um but I think Leslie has some uh context related to enroads that she's been trying to to work on to |
| 1:39:28 | include uh ice brightening |