| (Click on a 'Start Time' to view the video) |
| 00:00 | uh click on the three you just click on the three dot you click on the three dots at the top left of your uh screen uh where where your your phone where your camera is where your photo is showing where you're sorry where your photo is showing click on the three dots at the top right three dots in a little blue square uh yeah gotcha and then go down to rename Beauty just put in save well it's best it's better to have your surname as well just because then people know who you are well yeah we've had |
| 00:40 | other meetings where there are multiple people with the same Christian name and it gets very confusing right good thanks we all ready to go good evening everybody good morning good afternoon yes and good morning uh we got today we may have some youngsters joining us today yeah exactly yes I think we're we're not quite there yet are we um right um so I've actually got a I was very interested by something new said Stephen um somebody made a cloud yeah and I was wondering how they did |
| 01:46 | that uh they used uh cloud seeding flares that are meant for rainmaking and they uh set up they had about 200 of them they're normally use about five or six on a plane but they got 200 of them it was done by Discovery Channel and they did it uh and in a place in South Africa called lipleck which is on the west side and they've been told that it was always perfect to Cloud conditions and when we got there there was not a cloud in the sky no and uh they said well we'll let them off anyway we paid for the flares and we paid for |
| 02:32 | the planes and we played for the all the all the helicopters to do the filming and we John Latham and I were there and we said no no we could only make clouds that are already there be whiter they were definitely determined to do it because it's very good television to make uh look stupid and they let it off there was a a a a fireman with a fire hose was spraying the floor of the the deck of the ship they were you can use and about 10 minutes after they'd done this a cloud uh came out of nothing you know it was clearly the air must have |
| 03:15 | been very very clean it had probably come up from the Antarctic and it was very clean and it Formed an absolutely abusable cloud and they've flew through it and measured all the aerosols and all that sort of stuff and it was probably reflecting about five gigawatts it was about two minutes worth of a spray vessel and it spread wider and wider and it got fainter as it spread wider uh and it was going on uh we we we left the place after about two or two hours um there's some video of it which looks very impressive |
| 03:57 | and it was done in about 2007 or eight okay I thought it was a recent thing okay it was way back then uh but the the film was made by London company who were working for Discovery Channel called impossible pictures and they they'd done they don't think done some filming for Jurassic Park um okay there are you know a film film making group do you have a link for it Stephen uh I haven't been able to funded on the web I have a CD of it and um there was a it's all together six programs about the climate problem and |
| 04:43 | we were one of them and the the time I was thinking that the best way to make the spray was to have two very high pressure Jets of salt water headed directly for each other so they met the Jets met head on right and they were going to be filming this and um they did this but they didn't have salt water they just had fresh water and they didn't tell me that I found out about that later on yes so they also threw away a whole day's filming because um a car came into view that wasn't General Motors every every car on |
| 05:32 | on shot has to be General Motors because they were um and uh that's as a level of Integrity that Discovery Channel well scientific Integrity but okay nobody got permission by the way for setting off all this aerosol yeah I didn't come across a paper actually when I was um we were doing the exam report that said that you put form clouds even where there weren't wasn't any before I can't remember who it was now I'll try and look it up but there has been a paper which is not connected with that |
| 06:12 | experiment and Stevens mentioned it was I think it was just a modeling paper actually I'm not sure Stephen said I'm sure it depends on the actual price conditions in the air yeah and other things like that yeah okay I'd like to just um thank you for that Stephen um maybe just see if there's uh I just want to ask generally about that um about sort of atmospheric processes um but let's hear um so welcome everybody um let's see what we want to talk about today what would we like to um I've got something you might be |
| 06:55 | interested in I haven't got very much information about it but I think you might have some of you will have heard of Arya Yvonne's research and Innovation agency that is being set up by the UK government it's the equivalent of arpa in the uh in the US or DARPA as it was originally all right Advanced research and what was it Innovation agency it's basically to do what's called sort of um it's not blue skies research for say it's things that look which haven't got a very solid basis but |
| 07:30 | might turn out to be you know quite good so the Americans are probably needed this and and it's been quite successful in many cases but they they know they're you know like 90 of them might fail but two percent might turn out to be really quite useful oh that's fantastic yeah I risk sort of strategy right and I understand that they are going to at least be considering not necessarily going to do it yet but considering looking at climate intervention techniques in general okay I don't know at the moment but okay all right |
| 08:00 | information thank you very much I mean that okay so that's that's on on the agenda so say there's anything more to say about that okay what what else so um we have a new person today uh plumbing and bregov am I saying your name right clamina yeah hi everyone hi yeah and uh I met plamina online as we always do um you're volunteering with the Oswald's uh atmospheric methane removal company is that right exactly uh yeah um we get to know each other uh working together in a company and he became Apprentice |
| 08:43 | with my passion Forum environment so I was fortunate enough to receive an invitation to your Channel and I followed a few of the conversations there the last few weeks and so I tried to gain some insights into the present landscape key subjects the latest Innovations and ideas that you share there so thank you for having having me here yeah you're welcome I mean everyone's invited to this that can sit through you know 19 minutes of this kind of conversation uh it's been very educational for me from all these |
| 09:17 | wonderful experts here um okay and you've got a sort of background in um environmental um science is that right we are tested it for uh two years and Environmental Studies exactly great okay environmental science environmental science and you're from Bulgaria but you're living in Germany now exactly I am born and raised in Bulgaria but I live in Austria in Australia for 10 years now Austria right yes okay great so let's just see thank you I mean let's see if there's anyone else that's |
| 09:54 | new um Anton wanted me to invite five new people and what yes um so I don't see but uh Mike Williamson uh oceanographer yeah uh hi uh welcome to noack okay uh would you like to say a few brief words about yourself please well um I'm retired uh Marine geophysicist from my uh ran Williamson and Associates for 35 years and uh we have a lot of deep water experience going back to the ocean mining days of the 70s and yeah I certainly motivated to try to find out some ways we can help save our planet great great I think you're different |
| 10:50 | Mike Williamson um to the one that I was thinking of there's a British one as well it's also just luck that uh get that you have to be an oceanographer as well okay yeah well there are a few of us around yeah a few months we probably all came from the shadow of Niles okay right um I don't know what's quite so funny about that but maybe there's something um just the way in which the way in which he just said we're all from the Shetland Islands yeah no other another location in the world would ever have another microwaves |
| 11:25 | and I love it yeah yeah well I'll introduce myself yeah please thank you order it and uh I am a con I wouldn't say a contemporary Mike Williamson but I do know Mike I live in his area um actually I'm up in the Pacific Northwest as well um I'm probably the least scientist of us all here I am a physician uh surgeon by training anesthesiologist but I've been involved in um working with Anton for a number of years looking at climate I've been involved in energy projects I've been involved in a number |
| 12:00 | of things you would not expect a physician to actually get involved with over the past 25 years um so I bring a slightly different take on it but I'm always looking at how to leverage relationships that I have and things that I've done in the past to bring bear to uh to try and support different projects so there you go that's great thank you very much Alex I'm actually an I. |
| 12:25 | T trainer so there you go okay um okay is there anyone else who's new uh I don't see see so if you have your hand up yeah uh regarding um Stephen's comment that uh they used uh opposing uh streams to get finer nozzles okay can we come back to that Sev can we come can we come back to that sure because what I want to do what I want to do actually is is fill up the agenda so what do we want to talk about today it could be a highlight something as Chris has just done uh something new or a paper or ask a question or I was thinking before that |
| 13:03 | um you know people who are new to all this might have the kind of question like you know uh the emperor is wearing no clothes look everybody you know you might have something like that to say um what do you want to talk about today yeah talk about the um the Finland optic momentum conference yeah okay so uh Arctic what was it called Arctic momentum momentum momentum conference yeah that was amazing thing wasn't it conference do I spelled that right no e-conference thank you okay yep the to talk about um inducing upwelling in the amok or the |
| 13:57 | the ocean the global ocean uh uh conveyor belt um as Chris has just responded to an email from me that's having a chance to read uh this morning yet but that's if they're interested in people's views on on that whether extra upwelling along the aimoff would make any difference or with what the impact that would be okay okay all right okay anything else maybe one more thing or maybe we just let the conversation wander as it's Austin Austin um I don't see Anton here is Anton here today yes Anton is there anything you |
| 14:48 | wanted to say hi Anton did you want to say anything about the website this time uh not until Bruce gets back he's uh putting in a lot of work on it but Bruce is right there it right here with us right now we're actually my vacation got canceled oh right on yeah Bruce might want to do an update because he's been doing putting a lot of work in do you want to is there anything to say Bruce for any uh other to show a little bit what I've done I mean Seth had some suggestions for a way of another way of |
| 15:17 | displaying the date and I I put that up uh to look at and that now we're trying to figure where the next steps are going to be okay so not really so that's not necessarily for this group then right but okay so then there's my thing so mine is uh uh you know how how can new clouds form uh form so uh can we um what do we want to talk about first or we could just go go from this go in this order I don't see anything wrong with this order as it is okay so if there's nothing else and and I've said this before if there isn't |
| 16:01 | much to talk about then we don't need to speak for for 90 minutes we can go do something else it's never happened yet and it hasn't happened yet we always kind of finish either on time or late um okay so yes this sounds rather a very interesting potentially to us Chris because uh it sounds like right up our street um the advanced research and Innovation agency yeah as I was saying a bit earlier it's the equivalent to the DARPA or APA agencies in the uh us it's designed to look at high risk |
| 16:36 | um research um so they assume that quite a proportion will fail but they might get some really good ones that will succeed despite the fact being high risk um so it's really trying to very much copy that it's not only a precise copy but it's the concept's still there and there because it's just called Advanced research and Innovation agency it's it's going to cover a whole Suite of all of the potential issues out there um it covers all the things the different research councils do in the UK |
| 17:07 | so it's not limited to any one particular area as far as I'm aware but there there's only just being formed now so they're just thinking about whether or not they would like to look at developing a program for climate intervention techniques and it's no more than that at the minute so it's a sort of very preliminary thinking about what they might do that's interesting that they have picked at least climate situation which is one of the things that they're looking at hmm do you know any of the people in it |
| 17:38 | um I know I've heard of one person only beyond that I haven't really tried looking at the internet because I think it's they're still forming it and so there's not a lot of leads information I think about it yet on the web yeah I mean sometimes these things are just a waste of time they're political rubbish basically and they put people in there that are just not great I don't think so I think the the the the people who are going to be as I understand it the so-called program directors are |
| 18:06 | basically picking people out of universities and research institutes um to take that role um they're not politicians or such like um but we'll have to wait and see obviously to see what actually turns out right um so okay well I'm gonna have a look on on the web um and see if I can find them yeah sure and get in early with our climate Catalyst because we think that's going to be helpful sort of remove methane from the air and uh and make clouds um alongside sea water clouds okay uh thank you all right |
| 18:48 | um next um the Arctic momentum conference Robert thanks Clive so um the um uh Finnish Young people uh organized this conference over three days in Helsinki um last week and um it was uh really very impressive now uh I wasn't uh I'll just yes ready to stop talking um I think it must be Rebecca yeah Rebecca can you meet yourself can you meet me at Rebecca yeah there you go thank you um uh and uh yeah so uh their publication um Arctic end game which I'll put in the chat uh the link now uh is a very impressive publication and uh it |
| 19:44 | indicates their intent to uh get the Finish to Lobby The Finnish government to support the rephrasing of the Arctic and I've um arranged as uh you may have seen before um the uh the main organizer of the uh of the conference Anton uh keskinen to speak at the Healthy Planet Action Coalition public online discussion um this week and uh so uh just on a review of how the conference went and um and to to speak with uh interested people so I encourage you to come along to that if you're interested in rephrasing the Arctic and and how to |
| 20:36 | follow up this I think that their Arctic end game um website and paper are very impressive as I say and they were able to get some um an excellent program together for their three-day conference and Clive circulated the YouTube recording of the public for our uh session I I haven't been able to watch that yet but I look forward to it and I just uh welcome if there's any uh information or comment about this event thank you well I I circulated it because I was there I decided to try and watch it you know I registered and everything but you |
| 21:20 | hardly needed to register it was just live on YouTube and uh I was struck by this young lady Anna killer I think her name Annie poquila how clearly she spoke saying pretty much the same thing that we've been saying if not better than we've been saying it and that was right at the beginning well there's a I've gave the link um delayed in time because you just have to watch there's not nothing happened for about the first 10 minutes you're just looking at an opening screen and then she came on and spoke |
| 21:54 | for about I don't know 15 or 20 minutes um with slides and so forth saying that there's there's an old Paradigm and yes we must remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere but you know that's not going to do it on its own there needs to be a new paradigm of climate action to refreeze the Arctic uh so I've just summarized in about 30 seconds what she took 20 minutes to say and then they had then after I didn't watch the whole thing there was a lot of other panels sitting there talking about |
| 22:30 | science there was some good there was a there's quite good discussion I think we've learned a lot of that in these meetings uh so you know we know about the warm when we see in the emails from Alan gadion for example you know the heat that comes from the from the lower latitudes uh in the form of water vapor that then has this latent heat of condensation that transfers a lot of heat into the higher latitudes and not to mention the warm water that's flowing up there as well and uh and so forth so there were people |
| 23:03 | talking about that and it sort of ended up kind of lost for me it was it it was more and more sort of talking in how a lot of these things go might be this might be that you know people so anyway that that's that was my impression it was it was less exciting towards the end but but very very clear and striking at the beginning from this Annie pequila lady someone's got their hand up who's that I think it's still you Robert yeah any anyone yeah oh well I'll if others want to put their hands up then they can but I'll just uh |
| 23:40 | comment that I think that this uh interest in uh lobbying The Finnish government uh to uh to recognize the importance of cooling is uh is itself a paradigm shift uh I haven't seen um an equivalent level of uh of political engagement and and of course the Finnish government has not yet uh come on board but uh like the Finns are probably the smartest people on Earth so you know maybe they'll uh they'll do that which would be which would just be great and you know where Finland goes there goes the world we hope |
| 24:17 | um but I did want to mention a related thing which we can come back to and uh and that is that uh Buddha uh van deren has uh circulated a draft uh Manifesto for a direct cooling coalition in and uh I think it's uh it's a long um the same lines and uh the the whole theme is that there's uh there are many people uh such as all of us who understand the need for direct climate cooling but there's a lack of uh political coordination and uh so as uh as verta explains in his email which I do encourage you to read I've I've |
| 25:05 | replied to to virta just uh with a small group rather than as a as a public reply uh but the um versus uh plus colleague is uh giving the uh opening keynote address at the climate Summit in Bucharest uh next month which is the main lead up to the cop 28 in in Doha or the Europeans and and Hans uh uh attended the enhancement Workshop in at Cambridge University and is very much on board with this whole direct climate cooling Coalition idea of Voters Manifesto so between the the fins and their theme of momentum I think is |
| 26:04 | uh is a really important one because we have some uh momentum but uh but not much in in groups like Noah and so finding ways to to broaden that and get into the public sphere as the the Arctic momentum conference appears to be doing and as Luther and hands are promoting is an excellent initiative now Chris was was next thank you Chris yeah um I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet but I did notice look at the program and I did notice there was I think a representative from the indigenous community in Finland and |
| 26:43 | that's interesting because of course the indigenous community of Finland the Sami uh were those who were objected to that experiment but um David uh Keith's people were wanting to do in Finland a few years ago so I'll be interested to find out what those folks thought about that um that meeting so I'll need to have a look at the video but uh because they were quite instrumental in in um starting that experiment hmm yeah so they're coming on board this is a very good thing being involved in the conversation I |
| 27:15 | think that's what people want they just don't they don't want to be just ridden rough shot over do they they want to be involved I think that was the mistake that David Keith's group made no David Keith did not make that mistake what happened was that the uh political ngos from the Western countries who are Avid campaigners against um geoengineering uh manipulated the process uh-huh okay so the Sami were not against it no there's something we're against it yeah after having been manipulated |
| 27:50 | okay so they sort of had their arms Twisted by the um Twisters more misinformation I think wasn't it Robert it was and David Keith explained that at his uh talk with uh with hpac which is um really worth seeing because you know there's really some quite um malicious politics that's suppressing um the truth about uh the need for cooling yeah yeah I could mention um I'm going to send out I didn't quite around it today I was watching uh all this all about um you know is there enough mineral capacity mining capacity to to do 100 |
| 28:30 | Renewables transition and um uh so there's another one there's another good one from Mark Wales anyway I'll send that around after the Simon Michelle in is in Finland and uh so I'm not sure if he was associated with this event but uh he's he's uh has circulated his work as well but John wants to yeah yeah um I was hoping very much that the the Sammy were there to support the uh the program and what with what Anna was saying at the beginning uh which you thought was so good and I agree um you know the Arctic game |
| 29:16 | the stuff that they produced is very clear about climate repair acquiring uh three they divided into three in a different way than perhaps some of us would have they had SRM City Hall and physical actions to deal with glaciers uh so physical things to do with that is the kind of thing one would need for the Himalayas for restoring ice in the Himalayas perhaps and the Antarctic John there's been a different way of doing there's been proposals for example to Dam up the glaciers off Greenland by depositing vast great Banks of sediment in front of |
| 30:06 | them so they can't get out yeah clouds hanging Curtains Down off the front of them to stop the warm water undermining them as well there's a lot more than just glitches and Himalayas to that yeah um I was saying that I was trying to give something which wouldn't have been covered would not be covered by cooling the poles uh but that is certainly something that uh John Moore was there and he's been an advocate for such kind of physical interventions to yeah and he went into it a little bit during |
| 30:46 | the conference which is quite interesting um so that I was hoping that when the Sami came along they would be supporting all this and not a bit of it what they were saying was that they wanted their science and their knowledge what they call it their knowledge rather than being more specific about their size to match absolutely that's the science coming from the ipcc and all the other everybody else in the world um uh and they had rights as indigenous people to have a say on how on what happens in the Arctic and and there was a hidden implication |
| 31:35 | there that they would continue to be against certain kinds of cooling intervention they did mention that they had squashed a um an experiment uh baby kids experiment and they said it with a kind of brain matter of fact it's all you know something that they'd done uh certainly not nothing that they were ashamed of so I I was very disappointed this was in the art again game recent thing was it yeah okay uh but this was in the the YouTube video that the club's loaded that's right yeah so it was a whole session with uh with |
| 32:22 | with Sammy all in uh and beautiful costumes and the moderator I think was also from Sami and it was as if they were going to take on over this whole um uh discussion on on someone it seemed to me uh or rather than negative I was a bit apprehensive about that I have to say that's probably Robert can reassure you that it's not as bad as I can well I I would I would say that what it illustrates is that the uh the key concerns are less about technology than than philosophy if if I can use philosophy as a as a broad term for a |
| 33:14 | cultural uh Politics as well because uh what we have is uh Greta thundberg saying that geoengineering represents a domineering mindset and and that's a uh a really widely held critique of uh of the idea that it's possible or desirable to uh to physically cool the planet and so while while you have that philosophical objection which uh and I I cite that from uh Greta's um a major Opus last year on climate change which is as is full of very impressive material but uh has got this um attack on on geoengineering it what |
| 34:04 | it means is that there's just a major psychological political social blockage to uh to hearing anything that we say and uh and so uh so there's a need to engage on uh at that uh cultural level with with some level of respect but I think John you've uh you've noted a point about uh the concept of indigenous knowledge and as as distinct from scientific knowledge and uh that's another area where you know there's a lot of I suppose cultural relativism uh in uh in our postmodern world which |
| 34:44 | which accepts that that concept of non-scientific knowledge which is a quite a foreign concept to uh I suppose most of us you know we think of knowledge as essentially being scientific and uh so so recognizing those sorts of uh political debates and uh engaging in a in a respectful courteous dialogue with those sorts of uh perspectives is is going to be a really important part of uh of changing the public conversation around direct Cooling everyone Hi um it's Rebecca here and I'm online now I've been listening but I'd like to just |
| 35:27 | join in without my hand because of my phone if I may um firstly I'd like to sort of back up but add to what Robbie just said then and John what I'm doing is addressing what you've just said um there is scientific knowledge indigenous people have scientific knowledge and they say that their knowledge is scientific for example I went to a talk at the Australian museum by a woman a gumbungry woman called Chelsea Marshall and she spoke about the science of the oceans and sharks and she also um many of our Australian indigenous people |
| 36:07 | speak about their astronomy science so I think we just have to be very careful and learn more before we Robert I don't even agree with what you've just said it's not cultural relativism relativism it is our world view and our brains our knowledge does not recognize or understand or should say understand and recognize their science so when the Sami people say XYZ or Greta thundberg for that matter I agree with you Robert it is partly philosophical but it is based on in the case of the indigenous people that I |
| 36:49 | know of and Science is based on science so that's the first thing and um I listened to what you said Robbie about the Sami people up with the David Keith experiment and I agree with that overall is his summary and also what I've read in other places um they anyway it's quite complex but I think what I want to say is that there's no such thing as this army they are just like us every individual is different and they have different groups and different um even you know one person can change them one day to the next so yeah I just think |
| 37:30 | it's more complex than what we're saying and I find it not intentionally but I find it the risery and belittling not to be using words like science in terms of their knowledge and I think because we we give off that impression most white westerners do or most westerners and people inside a western mindset that's one of the things that really really annoys them and makes them think we are being belittled and up you mate some using Aussie language but why why would we be bothered listening to you even if |
| 38:00 | the world is in a crisis we have been colonized for 400 years and we're not really interested in you anyway I'm just going to tune back out again now thank you Rebecca I mean while you're speaking it makes me think that I mean even in a country like the UK people don't agree on things you know they'll say no we don't need more roads we need less roads or something but the government makes a decision we and this is organized by government but of course we now have a problem which is global and we don't |
| 38:27 | have a global government and I I'm not sure I don't know many people who are in favor of a global government but there does have to be some some kind of you know International Coalition that's able to make a decision um and you know and hopefully a sensible decision uh that that actually is for the benefit of all including all the species of the world as well uh that has to begin with uh National governments um promoting that concept so if if Finland can promote um uh rephrasing the Arctic and if uh |
| 39:03 | Australia can promote Marine Cloud brightening for the Southern Ocean just as examples uh then uh that would uh enable the sort of uh Global conversation a direct climate uh cooling uh Coalition would require and I I uh take Rebecca's point that um you know respect for indigenous perspectives is uh is absolutely essential but I I do think that you know of course there is indigenous science but there are also things that are called science which are not and so that's these sorts of uh you know complex they're complex questions which |
| 39:46 | require a lot of of back and forth and you know I'm happy to be a little bit provocative in uh you know challenging uh some of that while you know from a position of you know profound respect for uh for where they're coming from and and need for to support uh you know a much stronger inclusion of indigenous perspectives while while still having a critical engagement with them and not just sort of uh fawning over everything they say yeah there you go well I agree with with Robbie and it's not fawning to be to be |
| 40:20 | intellectual and to engage with them but when we when we give our Vibes of we don't have the foggiest idea what you guys are on about we think your knowledge is not scientific then that's when that the conversation doesn't even start so I'm just that's what I'm saying there are a lot of scientists out there and many of them actually have phds from European universities but in addition to that they've been out in the field another one was a movie I saw about Malaysia the other day and they're at |
| 40:49 | traditional knowledge so we have to start off with there are lots of different places where scientific knowledge has grown over the Millennia and ours is only one of them based in Greek and based in sort of what we've all been doing and now of course you know the public university world is Multicultural but I just didn't like the tenor of what I heard before because I thought it was showing not much understanding about indigenous science but I think I remember John John Kerry said um or um I think John Curry said that um to |
| 41:24 | find scientists agreeing with each other is extraordinary which is why he has to listen to most scientists saying that climate change is you know real and man-made because mostly science even scientists argue with each other all the time I mean that's what we do we do in these meetings um so I do think it's rather difficult for politicians with a problem this complex and this completely Global you know and sami's a small part of it you know equally you know we could say that you know they're calling us oh you are |
| 41:55 | the Civilized you know what do you think you're civilized but um well you know you over there well we're individuals as well just like them anyway I'm going to move on um thank you for that um let's get to this question here unless there was any anyone else did you want to say something else John briefly really um uh yes but it was just to say that I I would be very interested to know what this assance that the uh they claim to have which is uh income contradiction to the science that is our conventional understanding of science |
| 42:35 | yeah again you're a normal scientist you want to take them to task oh yeah yeah I want to find what what this special knowledge is which suggests that we ought to be doing something different and that's great it's it's a big curious and interested in what what they say yeah absolutely perhaps Rebecca can find out she claims to have found out something well uh let me let me out John I actually don't like I don't like your insinuation there I agree it's scientific but anyway thank you can I ask that you too just you're |
| 43:10 | not saying anything different yes yeah I'm not going to communicate differently but I'm saying not going to communicate anything I'm simply saying can we be very careful of our words and not try try not to sound condescending because that means they don't want to talk to us whoever they in that sentence is indigenous people with scientific knowledge so I'm happy to chat but I'm saying uh words like claiming and so forth sound condescending and it sounds belittling like John doesn't actually |
| 43:39 | think that they have knowledge yeah oh who knows um they do have some knowledge yeah but I I'm not sure it's the kind of uh knowledge which is okay you're not sure that's okay that's okay you're not sure yep you were going to move on weren't you yeah yeah and that's how science Works you're not sure which is how you find out okay um so upwelling along the uh so Atlantic meridianal uh ocean circulation I was just going to say one more thing actually um we have this new uh the uh Alex the |
| 44:19 | surgeon um because we hear people saying you know hands off Mother Nature you Jew Engineers no hands off Mother Nature so I thought of this image of a serious accident on the road and the the um paramedics turn up in an ambulance and they run towards the accident victims in a Stretcher to you know pick the person up and save their life and uh and uh the the Grim Reaper comes up and says hands off their mind laughs yeah well it's interesting because the conversation earlier and then let's Let It Go reminds me a lot of Eastern |
| 44:56 | medicine versus Western medicine and what we have learned over the years is that we don't necessarily know everything about Western medicine now science and on the medicine side is not as well developed in a lot of ways is what I would say on the engineering and the mathematics and hard physical sciences but we have certainly learned that there is inherent value in understanding more than one point of view um and it augments and enhances what we do so there might be cause to think about that as we approach and talk to |
| 45:29 | indigenous groups because all in pure empiric observation leads to scientific discovery at some point or another whether or not the observation was correct or not is a different story but you know that's how you think about the basis of Science and you think about the basis of how people learn and what their experiences are so yeah great thank you yeah and one of the reasons I wanted to have these meetings is seeing people for the most part people send emails we're on these email groups and and people are |
| 45:57 | very helpful to each other and you know they're arguing about this this and the other um and but sometimes it's sort of a bit nasty and uh so I thought now let's get people to speak face to face you know and challenge people directly so let's go people people are born human beings get apple and you know learn to speak naturally we don't write right naturally anyway so um moving on uh so the Atlantic Meridian ocean circulation John so John uh is I'm going but we volunteer well we've actually |
| 46:33 | formed a company that hasn't done anything yet but we have all these ideas uh so yeah far away John please yeah thanks Ivan I'm thinking here about um using our climate arcs uh nutrient upwellers the ship drawn nutrient upward was along the aim of what would be the the pros and cons if any of doing that um they act they they seem to coincide with a lot of shipping routes as well which could be convenient but uh the question is would this help I mean I'm talking about the uh just the warmer surface water that bringing up nutrients |
| 47:08 | from below that um because when you get up to the north at Landing it drops back down to the deep and to colder water whether that could take some of the the CO2 that's been absorbed by the phytoplankton back down and sequester is another question but but Chris is kindly just responded um interested for him to speak to that if that's possible uh just what would be the impact of doing this uh DMS the whole issue of where and and also bypassing the major gyas which he spoke about uh recently about staying away |
| 47:43 | from the unique ecosystems and the guys and doing it outside those areas where possible particularly in a place like the sargassum said are you happy to comment on that Crystal yeah okay um well the first thing if we look at something like the Gulf Stream there's a classic sort of um example of what you're talking about um Gulfstream itself has beneath it a countercurrent going the opposite direction I don't know anything much about the county current I submit um so I don't know whether for example it will |
| 48:16 | be suitable stuff to work well anyway uh and even then would that actually benefit the Gulf Stream current Waters themselves I don't know and do you need to look at the detail of the uh water conditions in both cases to see whether or not there will be some benefit there um because after all the surface waters of the Gulf Stream I'd imagine a moderately productive already I don't know for sure but um that's something to consider so I think you need to investigate the water conditions to understand the suitability of doing that |
| 48:49 | also the trip there as well also is um if you you're you're gonna have to be because the counter current is going the opposite direction obviously to the Gulf Stream and your ships in the in the surface layer you're either going with the current and the county currency on the opposite direction um so you're you may have some issues with um uh your strength of your pipe and so on in terms of the stresses and strains on it on the other hand you could steam with the counter current and then going |
| 49:16 | in into the Gulf Stream perhaps I don't know how well that would work as well maybe just a there's a few things to sort out like that um now the obviously the other thing to remember is sort of half the amok at least is in deep water and you can't access it effectively not from the surface anyway um so you've got parts of the a mocker in uh surface currents such as the Gulf Stream and there are some surface currents in the Pacific as well that are part of the amok um but I suppose if they're in the surface |
| 49:49 | current for a long enough then presumably the Plankton and things will have already use those nutrients so if you did up well into some areas at least maybe it would have some it could have some benefit um but it depends where it's coming from if it's just been up weld for example then um clearly the upwelling water generally has high levels of nutrient as well as here too um and perhaps wouldn't really benefit from much more fertilization um because within the upwelling areas generally such as off the coast of uh |
| 50:20 | Chilean Peru you've got a continuous flow upwards all the time so there's no point trying to work well anything in that area because it's already coming up anyway um so willing areas are generally quite productive and you're I don't think you could realistically enhance the production in such an area yeah we're looking to to do it in um you know it's a tropical and subtropical Oceans Where there tends to be where the water tends to be more stratified and there's a lot less yeah I |
| 50:49 | mean as I said in the email to John um I certainly will be concerned about for example doing this in the surface of each other because those low very low productivity jars have quite a unique ecosystem that's primarily bacterial rather than or bacterioplankton rather than the normal plant and you see elsewhere so you won't have your diatoms and apocalists and those sorts of things in those areas you've got bacteria systems that basically recycle re-mineralize um the nutrients in the carbon pretty |
| 51:21 | rapidly um quite quick turnover but maintaining quite a low level of productivity um and also the and that's shown by the fact not only is the productivity low but the sediment in these below the South Pacific Shire is also one of the lowest levels of carbon I understand of any of the areas in the deep ocean and so not much carbon actually gets down below the mixed layer in into the deep water to sink far enough to get to the settlement but the first part of a symptom of the um system at the surface that might not bother us too much |
| 51:57 | because what we're more more interested in is um dimethyl sulfide coming from phytoplankton to make clouds because that's the other thing though in those areas you don't have phytoplanks in the normal sense you've got bacterial systems I don't know how effective they are at producing DMS um you can't just assume the bacteria are just the same as the fighter plane okay yeah you need to look into that I don't know the answer to that okay in my mind as to would they be as effective yeah cyanobacteria talking about yeah |
| 52:29 | sign of bacteria in the like yeah yeah I mean my biggest point is I think significant scale um personalization of something like the suspicious would radically change that Eve system you basically change the ecosystem yeah to something it's never been before but wouldn't it have been the case when there used to be lots of whales swimming about and dolphins and turtles those giant areas are essentially untrained um so the um as I said in the page thing I did before the reductions in productivity that's been talked about |
| 53:02 | are you we've got about half the level of of the mass of carbon in life that we used to have 300 years ago or so that was not an impact ever that's come out of the other waters around that are already and always have been productive by Continental shelves and little slope areas upwelling areas those are the areas where the productivity has always been as far as I can understand it the trials have always been gyars because they are the current system basically shuts them off from the um nutrient availability that those |
| 53:33 | other areas get and so those systems are as they always have been at least since I think I said probably in the in the Atlantic for example the gaseous he's been like that since probably about three million years ago when the animal is Smith closes off um the Atlantic from the Pacific before that there is a link through that area so there will be in very different current systems in place and if you go back further in time with tectonic play movements of course things will be completely different but that's |
| 54:03 | going yes too far back yeah so we'd probably be um our ideas would be more acceptable if they were more like Stephen's ideas of making clouds by putting an aerosol into the air to have more clouds the other thing is I pointed out in that email Duke live the DMS uh understanding about DMS has moved on a lot since the original hypothesis which is some I think 30 years or so ago now that was the claw hypothesis about whether it was more equilibrium yes yeah um and there's a lot more understanding about it in certainly parts of the |
| 54:43 | original hypothesis have proved to be somewhat incorrect with different explanations and they're also recognized now that actually thought Parcels are also a very important part of forming clouds it's not just DMS um so um DMS by itself may not be as effective as you might think because parts of the story involves salt as well we've been having that discussion with been having that discussion with Phil Boyd recently he's been in putting some useful information there as well just one other question Chris |
| 55:15 | what about the Indian Ocean I mean that's that looks pretty interesting uh particularly the the in the united ocean dipole and the effect on Australia with more bushfires and yeah I mean it's effectively a southern hemisphere ocean because obviously the nation doesn't go near as far north as the Atlantic City um so yeah essentially got a single jar um it's a bit of a different setup to the other ocean so I don't know so much about that one I must admit but um I'm assuming a little bit I did see that |
| 55:46 | it's a relatively low product to Itsy area but I'm not sure yeah this is a major shipping routes coming out of Southeast Asia through there if if Marine Cloud brightening and upwelling was done in that area that could have quite a positive impact on the Australian continent the other thing remember there's quite a lot being written about upwelling and how it's not the straightforward effects as you might think there's a lot of knock-on effect those Studies have learned quite a time ago did points out |
| 56:15 | that you'll end up doing things that you don't expect like a increasing um plant life on on land for example was one of the outcomes of one of the models I think it was done some decade or so ago perhaps um so there's quite a few papers about the knock-on effect so it's not just a straightforward do-up Willy and get thanks and get DMS get Cloud there's a lot more to it than that and I think the uh the pay for by Eco rolling because I put the link in to the chat in that presentation is a cautionary tale to |
| 56:44 | tell you the system in the ocean is very complex and if you think it's very simple you can just do a couple of simple things you get a nice thing out of it that is a really a very serious misjudgment but we'll have all sorts of there's all sorts of connections that will happen which may or may not be beneficial um yes absolutely I'm also interested in uh Stephen if you'd like to comment on uh the Indian Ocean he's written a paper about MCB and the Indian Ocean you you just to comment on that Stephen |
| 57:16 | um all I was doing was trying to adjust the temperature gradients across East and West direction to balance uh droughts on one side and floods on the other and the way you do this you just have a a fleet of spray vessels and the governments of Africa and the government of Australia would decide how they ought to be used um the there's there's a very complicated business about monsoons in with India and Pakistan and where the monsoon is coming from and of course a lot of the heat that's melting the glaciers up in |
| 58:01 | the Himalaya has come from the the Indian Ocean and maybe we could make it go a little bit somewhere else a little bit further east or west and saved some of the ice in the Himalaya great okay thank you jump um yeah Chris I have a slightly different question but it's along the same lines uh sorry to put you on the spot um if we take away the nutrient portion of upwelling in a current system like amok and we took away a specific modality of ocean mixing um and get down to a more basic question that would be |
| 58:50 | does break down or potential breakdown of current systems like the amok um would there be any benefit to some form of intermittent you know low percentage of assisted mixing to the water column would in your estimation would that have some sort of effect positive effect on that current because as it's being reported is that the further the stratification the more problematic and more potential for a Slowdown or a breakdown of a current system so is there an opportunity to mix in some way to assist in artificial mixing |
| 59:31 | in some way that would have potentially some benefit and if that can be theorized how would one even go about considering I'm definitely not a physical oceanographer but um what limited understanding I've got in this area I would say it would end up exactly where you were doing it for a start um doing it in some places might have very different effects from doing that in another place so you you might actually weaken the amop in doing it in some places you might potentially strengthen it I guess in doing it in another place so where |
| 1:00:04 | you did it would be quite Crystal I suspect um and yeah I mean the other thing is if you you're not if you try and mix the amount with deeper waters you're not just affecting the Emojis you're then starting affecting the current layers beneath the a-mot as well so um that might have some effects as well so it's probably pretty complex I wouldn't like to guess what the consequences would be it's certainly not within my area of expertise I'm not a physical oceanographer and never have |
| 1:00:39 | been yeah so I think you'd have to watch the physical relation over first really yeah okay uh Brian you have your hand up oh well yeah uh Robert was first I'm sorry Robert's next sorry Robert um so firstly uh amok uh the O in a mark is overturning not ocean so Clive you you said overturning thank you yeah yeah overturning so it's it's this uh vast Global uh system uh that creates the uh conveyor belt uh you know returning the warm uh Gulf Stream water down eventually to the South Pole and uh so |
| 1:01:16 | um uh I I really wanted to uh compliment uh John and and colleagues on on this concept of uh essentially piercing the thermocline because I think uh people don't generally realize the vast quantity of uh resources that sit below the thermocline so the the ocean has an average depth of four kilometers uh uh so a billion cubic kilometers and uh the vast quantity of nutrients that sit in that ocean deep deep offer potential so you know we talk about things like um big phosphorus and and if you look at the scale the amount of uh phosphorus |
| 1:02:04 | potassium Etc that can be brought up from the deep ocean the challenges of doing that in a way that will be beneficial uh really uh in it's such a large scientific project now the way I imagine the uh the Gulf Stream is that by essentially piercing the uh the thermocline around the letter uh the latitude of of Florida bringing the nutrients up to the surface to create algal blooms that will flow up with the Gulf Stream to the north that that increased Plankton growth itself has a a cooling effect um just by |
| 1:02:52 | picking up the uh the photosynthetic activity is is intrinsically cooling uh but so there are going to be places where uh the overall climate impact of this uh you know thermocline piercing method uh is uh it is immensely beneficial and it's it's going to be such a big scientific research program to work out where when how and I I'd just like to push back a bit on the suggestion that our speculation today can uh can say oh this is good and that's bad because those are empirical questions that that need a lot of of |
| 1:03:37 | research to to sort them out so so anyway good on you John for uh for taking this forward and um I think it's um yeah it's a a very good concept that's all yeah I'd just like to push back one little it because the nutrients are not sitting in the ocean forever sitting there unused the ocean is all in motion and those nutrients at some point in time would come back to the surface and be used um so if you start taking them out you will put you'll you'll preserve the ocean a large scale you would perturb |
| 1:04:14 | the ocean nutrient cycle and potentially impact systems that might 100 or in 200 years down the line would have received those nutrients will no longer received it so Fisheries might collapse for example because of that not saying it would but you know that's the sort of concept behind the so-called nutrient robbing idea it's taking it out from the bottom of the ocean from the lower layers of the ocean is not a consequence free activity absolutely and uh as you uh Andreas the German ocean scientist has done a lot of |
| 1:04:51 | work on the ocean on the nutrient robbing um uh Maps uh resulting from uh ocean iron fertilization so I agree Chris it's uh it's immensely complex but I do think that there is the risk that by uh that uh you know speculative science uh which doesn't have a strong uh you know Empirical research experimental basis can be used to prevent that Empirical research anyway uh Brian yeah yeah um you know restoring natural upwelling isn't taking nutrients out of the deep ocean it's enabling them to continue |
| 1:05:32 | cycling these are circular ecology and the ultimate destination is again the deep ocean so we have to think in terms of circles not broken C's as we do with the broken phosphate you know phosphate coming out of Florida going to feed corn in Iowa and ending up in a pig farm in North Carolina ending up in the Chesapeake Bay I mean it's going to be a long time before that gets back into a full circle but eventually I suppose it'll get back to the deep ocean we know how life in the ocean ends and that is |
| 1:06:02 | with the Permian mass extinction and when we see warming events like the ones we've just seen uh you know that's the recipe for the loss of 96 of all marine species has occurred 250 million years ago I have to share with you a story and that is 50 years ago I dove on my first coral reef and that is uh a reef off the Florida keys off Key Largo called the sombrero Reef the New York Times just had an article two weeks ago on the death of the sombrero Reef uh the um the Marine ecologists went out there to check on the reef just |
| 1:06:37 | a couple weeks ago uh took a New York Times Reporter with them they looked down and they saw the reef was a dark color okay that's not bleached it must be good they got on their scuba tanks and they dove into that water that was a 101 degrees Fahrenheit that's hot tub temperature folks you can't stay in that water indefinitely without overheating and getting sick and even dying as a human and how do you think the corals are feeling well they got down there and the heat wave came on so fast last month |
| 1:07:06 | that the corals didn't even have time to bleach they just died and so my first love my first love the coral reef that I grew up on that I I first saw as a teenager is now dead okay that's what we're dealing with today 30 years of inaction and 30 years of prevarication since the Rio declaration in 1992 section 15 that do not let scientific uncertainty be a cause for an action we need Steps step by steps Hector by Hector that's going to regenerate life in the ocean because business as usual we've got a dead ocean and a dead planet |
| 1:07:42 | and a loss of our civilization so our challenge is an opportunity is to move Beyond prevarication and move towards reasonable actions that can be done on a small scale validated by marine ecologists and physical oceanographers and I will say let's take back our namespace and that is there's nothing wrong with restoring natural upwelling to the extent it brings us closer to pre-industrial conditions that actually enables that nutrient Supply to continue in a climate disrupted world and that's our challenge another opportunity with |
| 1:08:13 | Marine permaculture and 100 other interventions I'm complete thank you thank you just just quickly the point that Brian makes about the Permian Extinction is was raised by Franz who may amplify on it in his discussion of increa worsening stratification and I I see the point of of this thermocline piercing where as uh working to pull us back from that increasing strategy stratification to reduce the stratification of of the ocean sorry um I don't see that at all rather I don't see that your piercing thing |
| 1:08:51 | will actually change the stratification um anyway I'd like to push back what Ryan said because his idea of restoring upwelling is simply not the case upwelling has generally May well be less strong generally than it is now the real problem is the increasing stratification that is nothing to do with upwelling that is stratification and the stratification has been intensified by surface water temperatures that's what's caused it we don't need to restore upwelling although we might need some well some upwelling areas might need to |
| 1:09:19 | be restored themselves but that's where upwelling already occurs most of the ocean does not need upwelling and it works without upwelling generally speaking we need to risk to to decrease stratification and that can only be done by reducing temperatures that's what will change however we change the temperatures whether in the ocean or in the atmosphere or both for even perhaps yeah Chris I think we're in Wild agreement about stratification being the problem and I know that you don't need up willing but I do know of 10 to the |
| 1:09:49 | 28th organisms microalgae and macroalgae that do need upwelling it is in order to survive I will point out that the energy barrier in a highly stratified world is much greater to that upwelling so given a certain amount of wind shear we're getting far less upwelling than we were even 50 or 100 years ago as evidenced by multiple peer-reviewed papers and so we're just seeking to restore what occurred I think we agree on the problem and that is there's too much stratification and the question is how |
| 1:10:16 | can we keep our systems on life support in a climate disrupted World in a stratified ocean and I think identifying the places that have had the regions that have had upwelling previously and are seeing it shut down so for example Northern California 2014-2016 partial failure of the California Current upwelling resulted in a decimation of the nearest discount for us lots of macro algae and starvation of thousands of pinnipeds and tens of thousands of seabirds were locked and loaded for a recitalation of that problem in this decade and our Challenge |
| 1:10:52 | and opportunity is to identify those sustainable interventions that can actually get us back and closer to pre-industrial positions I think we all are looking for a healthy climate for our children your example is fine but that is not typical of the ocean as a whole that's my point I I understand what you're saying I think you need to take a look a little bit more closely at mesoscale Eddies and the actual role of those Eddies uh that actually provide upwelling even in uh regions that are farther from Shore there are some good |
| 1:11:25 | examples of Eddie's actually providing through their physical oceanography upwelling it's a bit like a tornado you know in the in the ocean it's a weather system yeah no I'm familiar with that yeah yeah but I just think the blind idea of encouraging massage Welling I think has got to be looked at much more carefully than just it's a good thing full stop we should go ahead and do it that's all my point is I think it needs very careful thoughts and examination yes and I agree uh that you know we have |
| 1:11:56 | to find those regions where upwelling existed previously and they're not happening now we do have historical data on that and we're getting far far less upwelling particularly in the tropics and the subtropics we're receiving seeing five to twenty percent increases in stratification they're on the front lines of climate disruption and I will tell you uh the quarter million seaweed farmers in the Philippines who are now uh facing collapse of their communities because they can't grow the same kiwi |
| 1:12:22 | levels that they had in the 1980s and 1990s why because the temperatures are higher and the nutrients or levels are lower and these folks are on the front lines of climate disruption today for multiple reasons including those and the 20 named hurricanes that are coming through every year these factors are contributing greatly to the loss of these people's livelihoods and the collapse of the seaweed communities that we're on the front lines today working on the ground with fins in the water to actually help restore the livelihoods |
| 1:12:50 | and restore the ecosystem function of these tropical regions they're on the front lines of the stratification problem so thank you for your interest yeah like I said that but I mean my point is with all the open ocean which I think is not your point mainly so I would still maintain my concerns about doing upwelling on a major scale in the ocean Jazz for example well let's let's proceed hectare by Hector shall we in other words we've got 3 000 square kilometers of kelp forest to restore in the United States and they |
| 1:13:20 | were lonely Coast they're not in the ocean jazz that's fine we're not we don't have to start in the ocean shires we're two kilometers offshore and we're in 300 meters of water all of your upwelling restoration tend to imply the whole ocean needs to be needs to be subject to storing up willing and that similarly is not the case that's my point in certain cases it's not appropriate everywhere I I agree with you Chris we don't need to start in the middle of the ocean we can start next to our Coastal |
| 1:13:47 | communities you could I'm fascinated by the argument and I think they've reached a conclusion it's very clear actually that and there's lots of um room near the near The Coasters offshore and we can start there so we're in Wild agreement Let's uh let's begin with our communities and build from them okay thank you both for that that was fascinating for me okay thank you uh Rebecca is next yeah hi um I just wanted to make a methodological point and I think it's both what Brian was saying about |
| 1:14:30 | um working in certain locations with understood things that you're trying to do based on good science and recording what exactly happens in that particular location um before scanning I'm really going back to Robbie's comment um about having very small scale scientific field research and what I think somebody said just before Robert I forget who is that um we need to quantify what it's sorry it's very locational what the climate's effects are I think it was actually you Clive that said it |
| 1:15:07 | so my point is that when we are doing these field firstly we have to have field experiments like what Brian is doing and what we are planning to do now in MCB we've got that almost ready to you know get going you then have to write down today it was ex it was in the Port Mornington peninsula of Victoria latitude longitude the wind was so and so the temperature was such and such and this is the climate cooling that happened and so um or maybe that didn't happen Etc but to work out the small micro scientific cause and effect in real |
| 1:15:45 | field experiment is what you need to do to be able to scale up and then to be able to predict well um today the same over in Florida it's the same as what it was in morning yeah that's right that's that's the sign so I'm just saying exactly but that's what we need to do and that's what we are doing in MCB and Brian's doing as well in the Philippines so basically I'm saying you need field experiments above all desktop stuff is the first step and then you must do the field experiments |
| 1:16:13 | yeah thank you yeah uh France yeah I wanted to recommend uh to Chris Vivian's he said um in the uh if if if I drew up belly I uh take some nutrients away from from the ocean which then would uh fail on another part of the ocean that's that's nonsense I think because uh nutrients are permanently produced in the ocean sediments in the uh and the middle ocean ridges and uh in the Bedrock of the ocean floor permanently |
| 1:17:19 | and you don't uh it it takes the ocean it becomes not depleted in in nutrients if it if I if I grew up belly no no the resource is too fast and they're permanently renewed well I think you've misunderstood friends I was not saying you have removed the nutrients completely after all um we must remember you can't create or destroy atoms of elements they exist always what you can change is the distribution of them that's the point I was making it's not the level of nutrients out of the whole system but |
| 1:18:09 | what you will do though is take it out of the areas just beneath the surface mix layer put it into the surface layers where it will be utilized and that's the area beneath the surface mix layer which would normally at some point proceed on and come out and be up weld at some point in time in the future which could be quite a long time it could be 50 100 couple hundred years maybe depending on the current systems and that nutrient would then be depleted in that particular case it hasn't been removed from the system it's just been |
| 1:18:39 | redistributed and the redistribution is essentially what causes the problem it's not been removed I'm not talking about the odd little experiments and things happening like that at all big scale stuff do you want to shift Giga tons of stuff that's what I'm talking about just just the the ocean currents which uh the deep ocean currents permanently uh transport is of nutrients of course and bring them at the upwelling sides up I mean I'm not the only person who's raised this idea of relation robbing |
| 1:19:23 | it's been around in the scientific literature for quite some decades it's an it's not my idea at all uh we need to clarify something about nutrient rubbing here and that is it has some validity in the apoplectic Zone but if you look at the total capacity of nutrients in the mesoplastic zone between 100 meters and a thousand meters it's measured in Millennia I mean that's how how vast the nutrient Supply is there and we can actually choose where in the mesopotic zone to draw nutrients so yes monitoring that is important but |
| 1:19:55 | in a stratified World those nutrients actually you know accumulate and they stay in the mesopelagic zone as opposed to coming back up so restoring those functions that we've been demonstrated in previous decades is an essential thing particularly in in regions that are you know in the exclusive economic zone of those countries they can choose individually what to do so I think there's an opportunity uh you know tracking nutrient robbing in the epiplidic zone has a lot of validity but actually resupplying the epipelagic Zone |
| 1:20:27 | with mesopotic nutrients which is what Nature's been doing but you know we find if we can provide nature um half a chance she'll rebound exponentially and the challenge and the opportunity is to restore that natural upwelling which has been diminished measurably over the past 100 years yeah it'll depend on location and scale I think so I wouldn't rule it out at all but location and scale will be important in order to understand what you could do where that's right and for the foreseeable future you know we're one hectare at a |
| 1:21:01 | time for thousands of coastal communities and helping them get back on their feet so I think that's a good scale to start with thanks yeah I mean without nutrient weather we um we have to sort of sell it to financiers and we and we can't give them a huge complexity about this or that or what might all and so as I said if if we get marine engineers and funders and people together to actually make one that works um it can we can what I'd like to do is hand end it to oceanographers and say you know you've got a tool that you can |
| 1:21:35 | use you know you know where best to use it I don't know I'm not an oceanographer um so I'd expect it to be done I'd want it to be done properly I wouldn't wouldn't want to have my name associated with something that just is just you know an oil company comes along and says right we're going to turn over the entire ocean they couldn't anyway they're too big anyway they're too big but but um so so but I understand your fears Chris because it has to be sold as yeah we're going to solve the problem |
| 1:22:03 | Bish bash brush there you go job done move on to the next problem yeah I'll be quite happy for the experiments we don't Clive I've got no objections to that whatsoever um I think but I just think you need to take it a step at a time yeah I totally agree I wouldn't want it any other way Clive and Chris and I'm very happy to say that we've got a tenth of a hectare in the water today we are uh restoring natural upwelling to nutrients in the Philippines and we are applying for funds to bring the oceanographers out to |
| 1:22:34 | do the biogeochemistry do the physical oceanography do the carbon cycling and do the Marine ecology it's an uphill challenge but uh you know fingers crossed we're writing those proposals as we speak and we hope to have the support for our oceanographic colleagues to enable that kind of scientific due diligence to take place on our very first hectare which we hope to have in the water uh in 12 months time so we've got a gap around 450 000 presently so uh please send the word out that uh you know we're 85 of the way there to |
| 1:23:06 | funding the full hectare and looking forward to completing that funding this year and building the world's first hectare of deep water cycling deep deep cycling Marine permaculture hopefully in the next 12 months thank you okay Brian I'm just wondering uh Mike Williamson I'm not you're not required to speak but you're an oceanographers was there anything you were thinking that you might like to say this is come off mute I might have to that's it well yeah yeah just I I think that uh the concept of |
| 1:23:43 | breaking down the thermocline is is positive on a number of levels not only the the nutrients recycling but of course you're getting cooler water up there and uh you know Bruce is talking about a hundred degree water off of Florida right yeah you know if we can do anything that helps on the temperature level as well as stimulating the the nutrients certainly uh it's worth considering and as far as an engineering scale I think anything that would be done as a proof of concept would be uh minuscule as far as having global |
| 1:24:32 | effects until we can really be certain that we can scale it up yeah thank you very much yeah that's it yeah thank you very much Mike that's that's great okay um Ursula you're still with us you're you've got good good attention span you're a teacher are you going to be passing out it's fascinating yeah yeah it's really interesting so thank you for allowing me to listen uh of course of course my pleasure everyone's welcome um right so what's uh we've got 10 minutes left and oh gosh this is me so |
| 1:25:11 | um yeah so I uh so Cloud's forming so I'm in the process of writing a I've been asked to write a white paper several people have suggested with our climate Catalyst as we've called it which is uh it's a family of aerosols that includes iron salt aerosol um it's just that we've come up with uh people ask questions like could could it be used to deal with a an Arctic methane burst if you've got hot water going into the Arctic and releasing methane there um and um and so France came up with um Titanium |
| 1:25:54 | in the end titanium peroxide you know so something else that not iron um so what am I trying to say um and it also uh produces uh clouds so um uh Stephen has kindly offered us uh use of his spray tunnel if we were going to get some money uh to test our the cloud making capability now I sent it I was asking for help from meteorologist at about a year or so ago and was put in touch with some some guys and I said you know we want to make clouds and they just wrote back and said you go away you can't make clouds |
| 1:26:33 | um and um so maybe think oh but so it's super saturated you can only actually have a cloud in supersaturation Stephen seemed to say the same thing a big mistake I've made there you can only brighten existing clouds but you can make a haze so we started talking about making a haze and friends have been saying this for a long time we put this cat aerosol into the air um and it's completely benign um but it makes a haze so it's nice and cooling when it comes down in the rain eventually it gets rained out like all |
| 1:27:02 | other aerosols and it's just gradually degenerates the clay but while it's in the air it makes a haze and if it's in dryer it might last a nice long time if you make a cloud brighter that lasts longer in the air as well so it reflects heat away for longer as though it cools for longer um so but but to so therefore to see Stephen say oh yes no no we made a cloud um it was a big surprise to me and I was wondering if if you if we if you can make up you can get a haze uh a sort of you know Mist let's call it Haze when |
| 1:27:35 | it's further up into dry relatively dry air maybe a kilometer up would that have a cooling it would that cool the air beneath it sufficiently that if it was close to supersaturated you know nearly 100 humidity they're actually tip it over the edge and it becomes super saturated becomes actually 100 humidity which is at the point at which a cloud forms from the other aerosol particles which are always in the air so that was really my question for you Stephen is Stephen still here maybe Stephen is no longer with us what |
| 1:28:13 | I I can offer is uh that your intuition is correct um there is in fact a basis for um really um you know it's clouds at the margin and that is uh we're either uh forming clouds at the edge where they're at 99 moisture but this uh brings it over with the nuclei or alternatively uh the clouds are several percent brighter than they would be otherwise and both of those um have significant effect and uh you know even with minor uh I mean the clouds are highly non-linear so when you have a slightly super saturated |
| 1:28:47 | atmosphere with the right Cloud nuclei this can actually facilitate a great amount of condensation so clouds at the margin definitely we've seen examples of that that work over the past decades and there's a great opportunity to rebrite Marine clouds as evidenced by the research from tapio Schneider showing that in a warmer World there are fewer Marine clouds and that's a major concern for brightness of thank you very much Brian yes I've watched a little bit of tapio Schneider yeah that's great thank you thank you |
| 1:29:17 | for that as ever helpful thank you um it's unusual for Steven to disappear hope he's all right well that's that's it folks we've we're actually finishing on time if not early is there anything although sorry two points yeah first of all my acetamine is a concept does in fact create super saturation and the nucleation required to make Cloud worthy wasn't Cloud before and second point is how does it make super saturation because it evaporates the the lower two sets of sprays evaporate seawater so |
| 1:29:56 | that it it increases the humidity of that low water great and then the top the top layer makes the the nuclei which that's supernaturated air can then turn into into cloud second point is that um Stevens uh mentioned about having a two two sprays uh opposing one another to make smaller plays that's actually what these new um the commercial BT and schlick nozzles do they have an internal mixing chamber and they have two opposing high pressure streams of water hitting each other to make the smaller particles so |
| 1:30:41 | that that's that can be done good stuff thank you so maybe we can save the planet after all and just need modern nozzles yeah could you put a reference to this um tapio Schneider was it uh tapio Schneider I think was it Brian yeah he's a Caltech and uh the Caltech professor of cloud physics and uh I think you should be able to find him there but uh we can add to the chat at least his name if not as link you probably find him if you go into Google Scholar put in Schneider Cloud physics be there immediately |
| 1:31:25 | for anyone that's wondering about that this is what I do a lot let's just show you to give you a quick demo um go to Google Scholar it's really useful put it in here so Snyder um Cloud physics TI the uh physics E.I thank you there we go oh no uh oh not really seeing anything we've got Jay Schneider it's not a it's got also called J is he tapio just add the word tapio t-a-p-i-o there you go t Schneider accelerating progress in climate science this is a wealth just as a you know treasure chest |
| 1:32:22 | of useful stuff so that'll bring that up here sort of thing friends and I'll do all day don't we friends uh yep put that in the chat and then it'll give you citations you go like that as it gives you citations um yep let's put that in the chat if you there we go there we go yeah okay well thank you thank you very much for doing that yeah they're welcome John thank you everyone good meetings thank you uh Rebecca and everyone we finished on time everyone yeah bye-bye bye everybody in a couple of weeks thank |
| 1:33:11 | you all thank you did you want to hey |