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| 00:11 | hi Ron hey Claire how's it going I'm good for once I I don't have to be on my phone my new situation that's better be eating so I'm gonna spare you the details of that for a while thank you very much for that how are you how are you very well thanks yeah it was a bit sniffly last time but uh there we go the wonders of immune systems they get rid of it for you don't they some I'm all good I think I find traveling on airplanes is pretty pretty dangerous when it comes to Catchings sniffles and things like that |
| 00:52 | well hopefully you're all better I'm all better now yeah yeah hi friends I run are you gonna get time to look at my email to Matthew friends no even we won't get time we haven't had time today I I I studied your uh maybe you don't like it your question catalog oh that one okay there's there's just a short email to Matthew Johnson saying the ozone threshold will be different if they use a photo Catalyst than just using loads of chlorine I uh I read this yes okay but I I'm waiting I don't want |
| 01:39 | to send it to him if it's stupid okay I will look at it again just just it's okay and then I can send it permanently uh reorganizing the ozone relaxation yes that's right yeah okay we have lots of people and it's time for us to start uh so well not not everybody actually so I think there'll be more people coming along the other yeah so that I have something I want to put in good evening everybody or afternoon right about it why don't I I lost some what's up friends I'm we're still here |
| 02:36 | I'm still here yeah I'm unless they and no it goes all right Doug I I realized yeah you think you're a mute Doug I can't hear you oh I'm on that's better so I my uh my laptop was dead so I signed on with my phone but now I'm looking for it on my laptop I'll be with you a second here okay all right hey Anton hey there how's it going good how are you very good thank you uh spin so many things so much going on isn't there |
| 03:41 | yes there is did you get a chance to look at my recordings I'm going to sample that for my reggae album Sorry I got to figure out how to turn off my phone I'm gonna have to mute you Doug for the minute go ahead uh I just disappeared and it didn't didn't mean to mute you answer I've muted you by mistake I'll click this button but by the time I did that that's it better yeah all right well there's not many people here yet uh so um yeah so why don't I ask you Anton did you where are you with things did you |
| 04:37 | get a chance to look at my document if I just ask you about my stuff because because your stuff can should be at a time when everyone can hear you um I I be on the first pass and then starting to do a version of it that I think will be shorter for scientists to discuss um I haven't read the latest one that you just sent out okay all right it's a lot it's quite a bit longer okay cool I'll I'll port to that and then start extracting where I think um the critical pieces are and build a condensed version |
| 05:11 | of it okay all right thank you very much wonderful yeah I think a lot of it's well it's hard to know what yes some some stuff is you just wondered what do people know uh because there's so much rubbish out there isn't it yeah no I think but I do want to say like the reason that I think that is you know with a with a dispersed audience range yeah you you kind of got to capture a bunch of people that are going to be lagging in their education and awareness around these topics so um for the folks that are you know |
| 05:47 | scientists they're going to be really clued in and just building that quicker pathway yeah is what's needed yeah don't explain the basics yep yeah I do find that it we we think so there's a disconnect between what me and Friends my friends and I should say and and hi John McDonald is there yeah uh very early morning five five a. |
| 06:16 | m view isn't it um uh the small number of us recognize that the really the if we feel like we should be shouting from the rooftops about these photo Catalyst things and iron salt aerosol was wonderful but God got something better but people like oh what's this new thing we don't like that but it's like uh so Arizona is a fantastic breakthrough and this is even better this is like oh don't just go away you know so we we haven't got it got we haven't sort of got the basic message across um at least not to the point that |
| 06:54 | there's any funding at all um for this new stuff actually I've got a hi Stephen uh good to be talking to you in a couple of later in the week and I've got a question about clouds I find myself trying to learn about clouds all the time these days uh clouds right let's so I think there's enough people now let's do our agenda who would like to suggest something that we talk about I've got some things I want to talk about but yeah I think we should talk about the 99 degree record heat wave in |
| 07:36 | Northern Territories Canada exceeding the maximum temperature of Naples Florida Texas as well is right to um new temperature records yeah okay yes bit of a concern as in we just don't know it's potentially a huge concern what does it look like when it's almost all when it's almost just about to sort of go off a cliff possibly it looks like this okay day after day it keeps breaking records yeah okay thank you and we talk about uh a very very short messaging I'll give you some examples of what I said to Bill McKibben |
| 08:27 | and um a couple other prominent people very simply talking about Mother Earth having an extreme fever and when nurses and doctors and parents and grandparents do for their kids to save them um very very simple message can you talk about that yeah that sounds a good idea that's kind of the sort of thing that I have in mind as well so it's great uh so I'm going to put myself down and talk about potential potential of clouds uh you know power of cloud cooling firefighters that makes sense is that speak to you power of cloud cooling it |
| 09:19 | it's why we're talking about the different sources of cloud formation in that as well uh so yeah okay so it's several things it's uh it's the first of all so I've got kind of some questions really because there seems to be such huge scope for cooling using clouds uh that you could put the earth into a into a snowball back into a snowball Earth if you know um and so but then the other so that's I mean almost the extreme thing um but probably more of a worry would be to have clouds in the wrong places at |
| 10:07 | the wrong time and induce unwanted weather patterns I'm even thinking I mean El Nino the El Nino and el nanina is driven by winds and so we might end up in a permanent El Nino or who knows what I don't know so but but anyway so but the first thing is is am I nuts or is there a huge scope for cloud cooling um okay run run you've got your hand up um yeah uh so I it's so many of you in the UK assume have heard of Simon sharp who was uh apparently a high official in the UK environmental uh Ministry or something |
| 10:49 | like that but anyway uh he talks about the difference between um uh climate science prediction and risk assessment and he is a very eloquent podcast actually on the uh climate podcast I'm just listening to so anyway that's one thing and that's related to the urgency of so I'm just curious if any anybody uh here knows of him uh the other thing is uh what do people think of um uh what I think of the lowest hanging fruit I mean we are an emergency obviously uh so lowest hanging fruit seems to me from a political sense would |
| 11:25 | be short-term uh GHC species reduction like methane uh because that that you know correlates that that's uh overlaps with the the emissions reduction agenda everybody supports and uh and of course the um reinstating the status quo for uh open ocean uh Marine uh bunker fuel we talked about that earlier but so I'm just thinking you know in terms of emergency climate cooling should we focus on these politically uh more apparently more palatable and immediate things we can do and that that that's basically it I had |
| 12:03 | something else but that's enough okay uh that's good stuff as well it's good okay anything else for anyone else yes uh I've got one there's a a list of 120 people who are hating geoengineering that's come around yeah depending about uh sending them a very polite friendly letter yeah trying to explain a bit more about it I saw that yeah that seems a good idea do you guys want me to write that one sorry that was a joke um you need to be careful about what you write but I want to make it be as |
| 12:46 | absolutely friendly and and helpful as possible yeah yeah I wouldn't be able to do that you just talk too too straight uh to the anti-geon engineers is that Stephen oh that's right there's 120 of them I've actually crossed emails with a few of them already but uh we could we could do it I would like to quote a famous quote that said if you uh that it's worth avoiding railing against the edifices of giant opposition if you want to change the world build something new it might be Buckminster Fuller yeah and thus um |
| 13:34 | would offer that framing is critical and we're we'd like to Rally uh around terms like rebritening the planet and other restorative approaches okay so it looks like there'll be plenty to speak about on that uh maybe one more thing anything else Anton don't you want to talk about the website uh not today we're still we still have a couple uh whys in the road to uh sort out and so Brian and I are working on that uh okay all righty okay all right then um looks as though we might have a new person Aaron West |
| 14:23 | are you there Aaron hello everyone uh it's nice to meet you acquaintance um trying to get my video edits around here but I'm having some issues um but I can hear you okay that's all right there we go there you go trending colleague of Anton's um extremely Keen to uh apply my skills to part of the solution if I can help it um so working on a career pivot uh it was an electric vehicles for a while now working on medical devices but uh however annoying at everything good at nothing kind of engineering education and |
| 15:02 | experience so systems engineer systems thinker and um really excited to plug in if it's okay with you guys yeah definitely yeah we welcome uh you know anyone actually anyone that we can understand and then if we can't understand you and we say sorry can you go quiet and you actually do go quiet so we've only ever had one person that just wouldn't go quiet and we had some um so I really would welcome anyone you know um that we can kind of cope with so very very welcome nice to have you joining us today Aaron thanks for your |
| 15:37 | brief intro yep he's a quite a brilliant engineer so okay British yeah my plan today is just to be a sponge just be in the background and absorb and learn learn from everyone at this point that'll work just great but you can but feel free to speak up uh if you want to right okay uh okay let's let's just get started I think maybe that's enough and if someone thinks of something else if we run out of we don't we've never really run it we've never really run out of things to talk about in the time so let's get |
| 16:15 | going uh and just once again everybody I don't really have time to monitor the chat I like to listen very carefully to everything so if you want to bring something to my attention just please speak up okay that's that's uh you Brian first about the temperature records Brian greetings yes um what's our first agenda topic that's you um uh talking about well let's I'll tell you what let's just let's look once again and see if this is this the order we want to talk it in um because I think we've got messaging |
| 16:53 | here haven't we let's maybe we talk about messaging here how about that and have messaging because this is uh that's put the slowing lowest hanging fruits uh here as well put that put that there uh kind of I think you get the idea uh trying to cope with there you go lowest hanging fruit so yeah let's start with new temperature records I want to just see if I've got this right if I've understood about Cloud cooling correctly and I also have a question about Marine Cloud brightening or Stephen okay so yeah new |
| 17:40 | temperature records Ryan yeah yeah so uh Northern Territory is Inland uh region observed 99 degrees Fahrenheit in the last week this is Ground Zero for permafrost and imagine you're a bit of prom permafrost dealing with 99 degrees Fahrenheit this week and what what would be happening to the permafrost across the north uh the Canadian Shield and this is very ominous with respect to the 2000 gigatons of carbon that could produce uh methane over the coming years so I'm very concerning from a you know planetary fever perspective |
| 18:22 | do you know what 99 is in centigrade it sounds like a lot 99 Fahrenheit 37 37. that's ridiculously hot yeah maybe 39. yeah okay wow and okay okay thank you I mean what what can anybody say about that get ready oh it was still warm to the touch yeah I mean that's blood temperature 37 and and a day when when the weather is forecast here as 37 that's that's a very that's an uncomfortable day for us here where we live here pretty we don't have aircon so that's not that's so that that is |
| 19:13 | it depends how long it lasts of course it was just a couple of days it's not too bad but if that lasts for weeks and months then we're in big trouble well it turns out that plants and animals exhibit heat shock proteins uh in response to heat shock so imagine all the trees a boreal forest and all the creatures living in that Forest exhibiting heat shock physiologically at the cellular level not to mention the humans who are up there uh I mean these are all concerns but um you know many of these plants uh and cold-blooded animals don't |
| 19:50 | have the ability to sweat and so for them it's a fever and we're through dealing with a planetary fever this week and we should be thinking about that as uh the Boreal forest and the other biospheres being affected as well as the melting sea ice right yeah because the forest is going to be dried out again and then there'll be more Forest even more forest fires that's correct yes yeah turns out the fire danger is exponential with temperature okay right does any has anyone said anything about what's the cause of that these you know |
| 20:30 | temperature huge temperature anomalies in places like that I wouldn't be surprised if this is a direct result of reduced aerosols from the IMO regulation that went in effect in January of this year of no more high sulfur bunkerfield in the ocean I don't think it's uncorrelated and this is exactly what we saw in 1980 with the passage of the Clean Air Act in America when sulfur was removed from uh terrestrial sources and we're just seeing the same thing Revisited on a grander scale in the ocean right another |
| 21:03 | step up in temperature well we've done the same experiment twice and we're getting the same results ah he's sticking temperature yeah okay that's a perfect segue yeah okay all right all right good to run so I think uh I we can have uh go ahead Clive yeah I was gonna uh talk about this was meant to be down here so talk messaging and sort of thing here and podcasts and stuff like that but actual talk about sort of hard science first yeah okay so um I could just add to Brian's Point that's that's the ocean uh there's also |
| 21:51 | as as many of you may know there's a a heat dome in in the southwest and the U.S and Texas and I just had relatives over here that they can't work outside I mean places like Houston are known for very high humidity and heat in the summer but this is just way off the charts and so we're also looking at um uh civilization disruption I mean people can't work there's a whole you know the governor of Texas said people can't take breaks for drinking water because he says he's a ruthless SOB but uh um |
| 22:22 | anyway that's you know it's it's all the natural systems and the human systems are are being uh highly impacted here yeah does anybody have any sense of how quickly these climate or these weather impacts are changing people's minds about the significance of climate change and changing their views about the political implications of it I mean sorry carry on um yeah I mean we need to spell out the the connective links in other words it took years for people to realize that the Clean Air Act was actually you know |
| 23:07 | a contributing factor towards the hockey stick temperatures after 1980 and now again we're in the middle of this and very few people know that the IMO banned the high sulfur bunker feel and very people it's so they're wondering well what's causing this heat wave and there are four different causes but you know potentially contributing factors but I think we need to spell out the causal links for people to understand it um well I mean in the U. |
| 23:34 | S we still have what I dubbed the media omerta or the Code of Silence in my book you look at the the national news uh or even the New York Times and very few of the stories say anything about climate change uh having anything to do with these uh you know incredibly uh disheartening and frightening um uh weather extremes we're saying I mean I hope I don't think that's as true in other countries at least I hope it's not as true in the other countries I guess the other thing I would say is because uh at least in the northern |
| 24:11 | hemisphere the the you know these extremes peak in the summer and then rapidly uh dissipate um you know it's easy for people to get alarm for a few weeks and then once the fall comes and the winner comes it's back to complacency again I mean we've seen it year after year after year whether this here will be any different I you know I would think it would it would take an extended period of time I mean in the U. |
| 24:42 | S or Canada if these wildfires continue on through through the late fall which I think is conceivable maybe that will make a difference in in political mobilization um but I think most of us would probably be as cynical as I am that if nothing is moving the needle so far it's hard to imagine anything other than you know just total catastrophe moving the needle in the future hmm yeah um just while he's speaking uh I mean I've I saw uh something I I've subscribed to all the baddies as well all the villains and uh so there's one |
| 25:21 | called Net Zero watch and uh they're telling me how civilization is going to collapse because we've got a new religion called climate change and we're all getting to to to uh sort of devout to this climate change religion we're instead of which we should just be getting on with our jobs and going to school and you know learning things um so I don't think that they're going to change their mind but the person I get is most ordinary folk they're they're you know they're just trying to |
| 25:48 | make a living they're trying to get by and they haven't got time to study climate change ceramic science they don't know who to trust they know there's something wrong they know they can tell it's getting worse some of them are going on protest marches they've been told that geoengineering is a bad thing um it's very difficult for them to work out what to do I do wonder if we go got an opportunity here with these the the loss of the sulfur fuels to be able to actually say somehow get a message out |
| 26:18 | and say look the loss of these of this clouds aerosol is clouds that reflect the heat back out to space reflect the heat away we've lost that it's possible to put them back without the pollution we can brighten existing clouds it's called Marine Cloud writing and for people like um Dave King and George Soros to put this out so that people have got something to get behind that's that's my thought and added to that fly if you could you could certainly analyze the benefits of those those Banker fuels in the past in |
| 27:03 | buying us time because if we hadn't then we'd be in a worse date than we are now I mean there's other doubts I know that but yeah you could from a cooling point if you've Analyze That quite carefully as well yeah it needs top level scientific it needs to be it needs to be in the press as well doesn't it I mean it needs to be in the press that this person who we trust has said um that clouds you know aerosol provides a very direct and immediate cooling we've been taking it away we need to put |
| 27:34 | it back so that people got something to go to the government with and say do this do it we're on that on that topic anyway uh um I I would uh herb has sent some some information about uh I don't know if it heard you send it to everyone on this list but uh Leon Sim at some kind of a debate between Leon Simons and um Zeke Huff's house father on the on the actual data uh trying to figure out the the uh the signal the impact from the the bunker fuel regulation uh uh going into effect in 2020 and so apparently uh I |
| 28:19 | mean her I don't know if you you know have actually read Zeke's stuff on this but from what you've said in your uh uh Zeke is um uh claiming the impact is fairly small and Simon's is uh is uh contending otherwise and so that's something I think uh is worth uh you know watching and and trying to find out what the what the actual evidence is for uh for a major uh impact from that from that uh you know regulation hmm yeah I agree totally Clive I mean that that you know the messaging for us should be look you know uh because I've |
| 29:01 | gotten pushback from this and people saying you know well uh you know aren't you like the the effort to clean up marine fuel emissions are you kind of countering that by kind of going back to the the old uh Fuel and uh and so the answer of course is well no we should we should do both we should have the the new fuel with with aerosols you know that are that are maybe benign aerosols that will have the same impact in the meantime why don't we just you know use the old fuel until we have a good substitute instead of you know uh send |
| 29:36 | you know warming up the planet uh the way you know we we uh potentially are I talked enough so that her I got her uh yeah yeah actually I don't have much more to say about the uh the the difference of opinion or facts about the the impact of the desulfurized fuel yet uh I mean Leon uh tweets probably uh every two hours or so and has attracted uh thousands and thousands of people more and more every day so I'm eager to see what else they'll say but I just wanted to make one other comment I mean there's nothing super significant but I |
| 30:18 | try to use Twitter even though it's more and more difficult as the right-wing trolls uh take over the place literally but I happen to see a tweet that somebody made yesterday or the day before about the unprecedented well enough it was unprecedented but the extraordinarily High sea water temperature in the Gulf of Mexico and I use that as an opportunity to to send out a um a tweet basically saying something like well in fact I'll just read it Marie I it's the first time I've sent a tweet out about |
| 30:53 | Marine Cloud brightening I've believe where I said Marine Cloud brightening with a fleet of ships cruising the gulf May reduce sea temps sufficient to minimize hurricane risk it may sound outlandish today but will be tested and possibly deployed in a decade or two nothing else can reduce ever accelerating temperatures and I did get almost 300 people who viewed it and three people out of 300 who liked it but nobody commented on it yet but uh I hope that if if anybody would like to give me feedback on that tweet uh now or or |
| 31:30 | later I I don't know if I worded that appropriately or I could word it better or whether you feel it's premature to even be saying things like that but I thought I'd put it out there so any feedback if not if not now I don't necessarily want to take up more of the meeting at some point but I I think you just got to put things out there there's so much out there isn't it people are putting things out all the time and and most people we're you know I think we're most of us here are privileged have had |
| 32:00 | pretty decent education um pretty sort of you know enough of a decent upbringing that we can think this stuff through we kind of able to keep coming back every couple of weeks or every week and we keep turning up and making it work but people are I don't know they're on drugs or they're on who knows what what or they're dealing with some kind of upset in their life all the time and they and they're just you know they're looking at it oh yeah oh maybe I'll like that that there's not |
| 32:29 | much sort of solid commitment to make something happen there's rather small enough it's obviously there's many other scientists and there's other other groups of people it's not jobless it's not just this group but there's an awful sort of tale there's a big tale of people who will look at something and they don't really know what to make of it and it sort of registers some sort of thing and maybe they'll get a like but they haven't done much to say about it I don't know |
| 32:55 | um I can't say much more than that to certain videos I go into YouTube certain videos it's amazing it'll be a really great science video about DMS about demethylford from phytoplankton making clouds and it's had about a small number 30 views and a couple like just like you a couple of likes it's a superb video and then some some other there was a lady talking about how to speak English uh what what the right thing to say in the right place she's got about two and a half million followers and |
| 33:28 | thousands and thousands of likes so so it's partly sort of down to these algorithms and I don't know the thing you just got to keep going and try and find get advice on how to get followed and you know how to win the the game in social media you know if I could just real quickly I forgot to say that um the tweet I just read was retweeted meaning it was sent out for those of you who aren't familiar with Twitter um by uh Andrew lockley and his uh tweet or Twitter site which is called Geo engine geoengineering info which has |
| 34:08 | several thousand followers so he he retweeted it to to the you know thousands of followers who who um who follow his his Twitter handle so that was a big plus hmm yeah great yeah yeah okay let's uh move on um what are we talking about I wanted to follow-up comments and that is people are concerned about human health on Coastal communities when there is sulfur aerosols in the atmosphere and by emphasizing the fact that we don't have to go and do it the old bad way but in fact the lifetime is just a week or two |
| 34:44 | of these aerosols and thus if they have separate tanks for low sulfur bunk fuel near shore and hire sulfur bunker fuel offshore where it can do some good be far away from Urban centers and be rained out before it reaches the land I think that's a really key opportunity to articulate going forward okay okay well sorry it's I I got pushback on this do you is there data actually that the stuff is uh is going to uh rain out uh I mean um the folks are saying you know I some guy from the EPA responded I don't know if |
| 35:21 | any of you saw but that um you know it it would inevitably drift over populated areas eventually and so that the health effects will not be uh negligible uh if you if you use the stuff in the in the high seas even if you use it in the high seat so do we have data you know countering that some does some doesn't run yes most of it rains out if it's thousands of miles away and you know there's a again there's a tail that uh that doesn't you know that'll carry in the air and it'll come over and so they'll be able to |
| 35:57 | detect it yeah there's still there's still there's still a little bit there we haven't got rid of it in this triage generation we have to weigh this against the Heat waves which has resulted in uh morbidity for millions of people this last week and mortality for tens of thousands so we have to weigh these I mean you know it's it's not against nothing it's against dealing with these heat waves so let's talk about the lesser of two weevils right but so so we we are confident though in this group that within a |
| 36:29 | couple of weeks most of the health impact will will dissipate yeah if it's thousands of miles away but if it's just you know around the corner and the port just you know a couple of miles down the you know then they they then they should put their scrubbers on they should so we have ideas about how far out you have to be I mean this is what we you know to make this implausible uh proposal we need to have some some some data on this some some evidence yeah yeah I mean you can even have a U.S flag vessel with a |
| 36:59 | national weather service and Noah can say well you're gonna have rain here and here there are plenty of simulations going up uh one to two weeks and those can provide excellent framework for saying you're going to have these rain events it's going to get rained out in 10 days and uh there'll be times and places for each for each particular voyage across the ocean and uh you know this is something where ultimately it can be the on off signal can be turned on by the national a Weather Service or |
| 37:26 | it can be turned on by government agencies there's no reason we have to govern it but the reason the reality is we're dealing with the lesser of two evils uh in terms of this triage so so thank you Brian can can I ask that folks I mean I would really like Brian and others who are interested to to get together a group to to put forth a serious proposal and get it out there I think that would be really helpful uh Brian I don't know I mean I'm kind of volunteering you but uh if if if uh I will I can contact you later but but you |
| 37:59 | know anyone else is interested please uh you know contact me I'll put every you know I'll put my email in the chat although everybody here probably knows it and uh and so yeah because I think it's something that as I said low-hanging fruit that you know if if so if Simon's is right and Haas Hoff's father is house father is is not right then this this this should be something you know that that uh we should we should push I think maybe team up if this is what uh Simon sharp is saying um how about teaming up with him |
| 38:32 | no no Simon sharp is a different guy Leon Simons oh sorry yeah Simon sharp is uh it's uh yeah he's a he's a guy from in the UK that's the difference actually with a really great message but yeah it's a different topic yeah you know I would but I'm up to here Ron um sure sure I put my email and you know people can contact me I'm gonna I'm gonna you know I'm gonna kind of twist Brian's arm to today I think he might have said he can't do this one I don't know I'm sorry |
| 39:09 | Chris Vivian so he he knows about um you know you know Chris Vivian who's often here yeah yeah ex-government scientist and he knows a lot about uh the IMO and all the rules yeah yeah yeah sorry what was that Drew onto your engineering about seven years ago okay guys I apologize for being a bit late um I'm actually in the sailing event tonight here in my crew house I just wanted to drop in but uh I just wanted to say that in touch with server in touch with his wife and his daughter um who apologizes for uh not being here |
| 39:58 | a little heart attack and it's now up for a triple bypass um which hopefully was happening this week um to had a quick catch up but he's of necessity gonna have to take it easy for a bit so um we we've got his back uh and we need him badly but um that's uh that's why he's not with us this week yeah and probably not for the next couple of weeks to tell truth depending on the timing but I will I'll let you know as I could use thank you very much bro yeah but uh so I gotta love him leave you because um I've |
| 40:34 | got a bunch of people here and I bye okay anything else to say on that uh on this let's move it's about time today Clive I think maybe there's adding to a bribe saying there's a there's a broader messaging piece here about aerosols I mean that they're Obviously good good and bad aerosols like there's there's clean and dirty fuels and the scrutin bad bacterium in the it and it depends where it's where it's emitted of course but there's a there's a communication |
| 41:11 | piece as Robert Chris is always saying it's about communication we've really got to get this message across aerosols can be can be great for the I mean we need them for clouds so I think everyone just put the aerosols in the in the in the in the basket of being a bad thing and that's we've got to get that message across as well absolutely so just yeah I mean if you threw this to a really smart um ethical you know advertising guide and he'd better put it together if that's possible um but some someone a group |
| 41:42 | could easily get this message across in a in a public way if you found the right person we haven't got anywhere like that in in the group have we that's really clever at this sort of stuff I mean we've got people who've kind of but uh I've been in the advertising yeah no no I've got um someone hopefully from uh um Reuters reporting a Reuters reporter who I you know I just ping people and actually the lady came back and said oh yes I'd like to come to one of these sometimes so yeah uh a writer's report |
| 42:15 | would be fantastic to have with us yeah um okay all right I I kind of quite like backup envelope calculations to just sort of try and understand the basics of things this is so this is me talking about the power of cloud calling so I just want uh and I'm not I'm I was good at science at school but did you know some other things but come back into science because of climate change um so so this is how let me just put this to you in the in this not very well not not prepared way and to see if it makes sense to you so this is expect most |
| 42:59 | people have seen this before this is the earth you know the energy budget a huge amount of uh energy comes in from the Sun every day and quite a lot gets reflected by clouds 77 uh watts per square meter gets reflected by clouds quite quite normally naturally and the radiative forcing so actually there's something I want to kind of show you as well um that I've been working on um the the actual radiative forcing uh that um is warming the Earth right now is sort of between about two and three probably about this this is |
| 43:40 | what this is from the ipcc um up to 2019 so and it's made up of all these things here and uh and so there's the cloud aerosol that's uh doing cooling so we've got warming from greenhouse gases and then we've got cooling from clouds quite a lot of cooling there and when you add it all up it gets to that now I've um to do my document on our own aerosol cooling friends it's friends and me and others um that's the sort of uh version two of iron salt iron salt aerosol is an aerosol for for doing all this stuff |
| 44:22 | making clouds and but also removing methane um we keep changing our mind what they call it and people some people said call it climate catalyst so it's what you might have heard of titanium oxide aerosol trying to think of a friend more friendly name so anyway so this is the relative forcing here again that's the same thing I've just shown you here that's the same exactly the same stuff carbon dioxide methane halogens and all this sort of things ozone okay it's all the same that adds up to that and I've what I've done |
| 44:54 | because I work with I teach this kind of stuff um how to present business data it's the same numbers and actually and what I've done so our aerosol which of those climate forces is addressed by climate catalysts so the this Air Assault which we call you might know of titanium oxide aerosol does remove methane it does remove the halogenated gases it does remove tropospheric ozone it does reduce the amount of water vapor going to the stratosphere um it removes um the black carbon aerosol from the air so you don't get so much going on to the |
| 45:32 | Arctic Ice you it does add more clouds when it says aerosol radiation I assume that means Haze um so if anyone says that's wrong please tell me but I think that just means Haze as opposed to clouds and it doesn't have any effect on co2 or nitrous oxide or these other obviously land use or Aviation contrails but it does it does uh improve most of those things and so I've put them into this mechanism here and there they all are this exactly the same numbers adding up to exactly the same radiative forcing of 2.72 it comes |
| 46:11 | exactly okay what's per square meter bear in mind what I've just what that what's actually happening that two point seven is Tiny compared to the huge amount of energy that comes into the Earth every day and the earth spin goes around and it all goes well nearly all of it goes out every night and it all comes in again the next day but 77 watts per square meter goes out by clouds so what's happened is that there's a little bit there's a little bit less um clouds what was it saying um relative forcing yes that's right so |
| 46:45 | there's bit there's been a little bit more pollution a bit more clouds and so there's been a bit more cooling going on but then there's all that warming going on from the extra um uh greenhouse gases so what we're saying with Marine Cloud writing all this stuff about making more clouds is to make that negative a bit more make it a bit more right and so that's what our aerosol should do in various ways personally by just being there and secondly making more phytoplankton grow which makes it |
| 47:17 | diameter sulfide which makes more Marine clouds where Marine clouds mainly come from they come from the phytoplankton or indirectly so this this is this is what people like to see in business presentations so if we put it up to 70 if we could if it had so this is very crude I mean this is not a proper you know atmospheric model all I've done is taken the gas so the CO2 has stayed exactly the same and the and the n2o stayed the same but these other things that are affected like methane tropospheric ozone the halogens these |
| 47:49 | are all 70 less now and and the uh land use hasn't changed but the aerosol Haze and the aerosol Cloud have increased by 70 we've got 70 more of these and so we've now got a radiative forcing of a of a third of what it was it was 2.72 just now and now it's down to sort of 0.9 as it were so this one intervention could reduce the rate of forcing by two-thirds is it's quite a lot of to do but you know we haven't got any funding at all so this is the huge disconnect that we find disconnect that we find |
| 48:30 | um and let me just say so what is the scope so just I'll just been going a long time let me just show you what I've been looking at today what is actually the scope for increasing cloud cover in the ocean I was a bit disappointed to find that clouds in the Arctic mostly warm the Arctic most of the year round so for for most of the year you have low-lying clouds are trapping more heat than they're reflecting uh sunshine away so so clouds in the Arctic only during the short period during the summer do they actually reflect each way |
| 49:04 | but for the rest of the ocean um most most of the world they're providing a cooling effect so um and I found some so what is the actual Pacific Ocean for example what does it look like this is what this is reasonably up to date that's uh that's a Japanese satellite um so lots of scope to add more Cloud isn't there that's Zoom that's amazing how different these pictures look so generally you see more clouds in the northern and southern hemisphere than actually in the tropical and subtropical |
| 49:38 | ocean and you can kind of move this back and forth a bit uh it shows you night time and stuff um Google Earth I find actually they just pick up let's let's not go there um so this block seems to be lots of scope but let's forget about Google Earth because they just pick the days when there's not there's a lot less cloud am I am I barking up the wrong tree is there something I'm missing here can any scientist tell me Clive you have missed some big part of the picture that you've missed |
| 50:12 | can I just add a couple of comments first of all as you quickly flush through those those slides I got the feeling that when you started with which is the carbon so the the energy budget you're using out of date data I think that I see on that one that it was from 2010 uh may have been because if you look at the one that's in the corresponding chart in AR6 the cloud reflectivity is now 100 watts per square meter not 77. |
| 50:44 | really it's gone up okay right so does possible confusion here I think the 77 is taking into account that there aren't clouds everywhere that's the total work cards whether you've got them or you've got clear skies the actual reflectivity of a club when it's there can be up to uh 75 75 of what's coming in which is 75 up to 340. |
| 51:11 | well I I'm not exposing this but the in AR 6 the two they give the two of these charts um in fact if I should I share my screen and I'll show you yeah yeah let me just click it so you can do it yep try now well Robert is looking this up can I ask a dumb question what is the difference between clouds and Haze is you know aerosol radiation and aerosol reflection so is that the is that sort of the the heat of the aerosol that's uh radiating like the black body heat or or something else that I'm just curious if somebody |
| 51:50 | could clarify that I I think that Hayes is small drops which aren't big enough to nucleate properly and grow to bigger ones and clouds are ones that are big enough to grow to bigger ones so Hayes is a very uh immature cloud usually very low level two charts and they're both in figure 7.2 in AR6 this one the the lower of the two is headed up clear sky maybe you can explain this to us Stephen this is clear sky and you'll see that you've got 340 watts coming in and you've got this chunk here reflected |
| 52:32 | 53 is going out um of which 33 is coming from the surface yeah forget about whether it's 53 or something else that that number is when it's referred to the whole area of the Earth whereas the gaps in the clouds and there's uh which aren't aren't really doing very much it's only because it's the cloud cover is incomplete that you've got a number that's so low compared to 340. |
| 53:03 | of the 340 where there is a cloud you might be getting 75 percent reflected but you've got to look at over a whole earth basis because it's the whole planet that's worse than here so that's true yeah so this is the clear sky one and one of the critical things is here I mean I won't do the arithmetic but you'll notice that these these numbers actually all balance out and there's no there is no um excess energy right now if you go to the previous one which is the all sky and now includes the cat the clouds |
| 53:31 | first of all you'll notice down here you've got the imbalance which is 0.7 uh watts per square meter in a range of 0.5 0.9 and now you've got the same 340 coming in but you've got 100 watts per square meter coming out of which 25 coming from the surface and sorry in 77 it was well actually 75 so yeah that's a 75 that you had a 77 so yeah so it's not that different from what you were saying Clyde before okay including the 25 that comes from the surface right um so this is these are this is the |
| 54:06 | current figures that the ipcc is using so that's the first comment and it might be worthwhile if you're going to use that to use the most current um the most current figure rather than the 2010 one even though the different design I I I'm not using that in anything that that relative that energy budget I was only using it today to just sort of ask them what might have been a dumb question the second thing I want to point out is in your chart of forcings yeah again that that is dealt with um the reference is Table Three uh table in |
| 54:44 | Annex Roman 3 0.3 in AR6 where it gives you the forcing of all of these various elements and um that's where the data comes from now what's interesting about this is that if you separate out the forcing from the um from the so the positive 14 from the negative forcing so you'll find that the total forcing on there on the A on the ipc's figures is 3. |
| 55:11 | 84 watts per square meter which is offset by about what square meter of the um recording from the aerosols principally which is where you get your net 2.72 uh-huh so it I I I I find it quite helpful to look at those two things quite separately um sorry Robert I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying there I don't want to miss what you've just said there um so uh this um yes have I got the right first of all have I got the right figures here is this is this where that is from is that from R6 I think isn't it yeah AR6 yeah |
| 55:50 | the data behind that is um the data behind that is a table it's it's in NX right towards the end of the report and actually if you just let me share my screen again you've got it here the data's there oh well if I uncrop it okay fine well I mean I I it's in a different format but anyway it's in a table very clearly set out in the appendix I I'll let you share it so if you've got it that's it quite quickly because I've got it um I just want to know what it what I'm missing basically |
| 56:34 | I've got to go or if it's a sort of a detailed thing I thought I had already live but yeah let me just see if I can particularly would be to go to um or maybe just just just say tell me tell us what what is it that's well what I was going to come to was the fact that um in some eight L's recent warming in the pipeline paper yeah they look at these numbers in great detail and the first thing to observe is that Hansen and his colleagues it's I think it's handsome principally conclude that the 3.84 which is the |
| 57:17 | gross amount of current forcing is actually a bit on the low side it should be 4.6 wow yeah and the div and the difference comes from two from two primary sources well 0.5 of that difference comes from his view that uh not just his but and others as well that actually we shouldn't be looking and basing this on the um on the position in 1750 which is regardless of the pre-industrial we should really go back to 7 000 years before the present because that is when there is no anthropogenic signal and there is strong evidence to suggests |
| 57:57 | that there is already a significant anthropogenic signal in the previous several thousand years from Forest Clearing from increasing livestock agriculture burning and all sorts of other stuff so and that we kind of ignore that in our Peril because it's it's in it's in the data and it's continuing and the second thing is the other part of the difference is that a large part of what they've done in that paper is to account for uh climate feedbacks that are not included in the ipc's Reckoning and that is why he gets |
| 58:29 | to this figure of 10 degrees warming in the pipeline now the the corresponse also he uses 4.6 at his Baseline that corresponds to the 3.84 but you know like ECC that you've used yeah then he adds in another two watts per square meter because of the the slow feedbacks but not now not now such slow feedbacks from ice sheet cover changes which are ignored in the ipcc figures and he also includes a 25 uplift on the on the rest on the whole thing to account for the feedbacks from non-co2 ghgs which he reckons from the data that |
| 59:15 | they that they uh they analyzed for that paper um was a consistent feature throughout the 66 million years of the celozoic which we are still in so when you gross all that up what you come to is that the current forcing is eight this is in his in that paper is 8.25 watts per square meter the currents not not just but after feedbacks 8. |
| 59:43 | 25 if you include all of those uh if you include all of those forcings and no and deduct about one and a quarter one and a half I think it was off by memory deduct one and a half for the current level of aerosols so you come back to I think it was 6.75 net of the aerosols these are quite big differences in the in the numbers which are clearly not yet accepted by many because these the paper's not even been reviewed and probably published yet but yeah I think that if you're working on these numbers it is what it is perhaps useful to be aware that that analysis |
| 1:00:17 | has a very significant impact on the figures that you're using hmm okay thank you very much got that yeah okay so what I'm doing there's a long-term equilibrium forcing or you know that's always an issue with the Hanson paper are we talking about something that is currently effective or something that will be effective if the current level of GHC remains constant whatever me well he's saying it is currently affected and it will remain and it will remain effective so long as as long as the |
| 1:00:51 | current concentrations remain in place obviously one of the things that he does not address in the paper is how quickly or or how quickly the temperature will the temperature increase will subside and possibly even go negative as you remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere he doesn't answer he doesn't ask that question and doesn't answer it however um if you I as I'm reading between the lines and I have to be careful here because of course I'm not a climate scientist but if I read behind between |
| 1:01:18 | the lines what he is saying is that the climate response time in other words the time from when there is a change in the forcing so that change being reflected in surface temperature is very much longer than is um taken to be the case in the ipcc figures and that means that the current level of forcing which he reckons to be 8.25 or 6. |
| 1:01:48 | 75 net of the aerosols will result in longer term warming and more warming even love the ghds are being reduced which is precisely why in that paper he is now saying that we have to do some short-term calling that's amazing he's saying that that if if that re if the I think we're back to the same you know if he he's saying that if that current level of GHC remains constant which it probably will go up honestly and but if it were to remain constant so it's a hypothetical scenario because it doesn't remain constant it either goes |
| 1:02:29 | up or goes down with the you know falling short-term species so but anyway yeah the current the current forcing is what you say I mean that's what you're talking about we've got to be careful here because any any comment about the future is always going to be hypothetical because that's not a way of putting it down he's merely saying that if it carried on as it is then uh you know this is what situated but that is actually probably more realistic than the basis of the ipcc's uh uh zero zero emissions |
| 1:03:02 | commitment which says that um if you had a sudden change from you know of emissions from from where they are today at 50 gigatons a year equivalent to zero then you have uh no incremental uh uh the the temperature wouldn't continue to rise after a couple of decades that is probably even more unrealistic a a modeling scenario so yeah but all these all these comments about the future are kind of hypothetical yeah and you can pick your choice I might even touched us to finish this up I am actually in correspondence with Jim Henson about |
| 1:03:36 | this very point because I think that the fact that he has failed to address this question of how he is current and his recent analysis Alters the or how it impacts the rate at which surface temperature would change with future changes of horsing is a is a is a real shame he needs to address that point because otherwise I think his paper is going to be regarded as being of little interest it's not little not of little interest to me if he's if he's saying that greenhouse gases are going to stay this |
| 1:04:11 | if they stayed the same then it carries on warming for a very long time and still that's still very interesting to me yeah but it's a it's a whole lot more work to do this is what the ipcc spend a lot all a lot of time doing is saying oh yeah but it might not be might not stay the same you know it might uh it's probably you know could go up this much or if it's business as usual it's going to be that much and they have to go through all the calculations again as you say nobody knows but we do know that we need |
| 1:04:42 | to do something other than just keep talking about reducing emissions while they keep going up um put put it you know hoping for the best with carbon drawdown and rejecting um clouds um or rejecting any sort of solar radiation reflection yeah you're absolutely right and the problem that we all have particularly in these groups is that when it comes that these changes the reactions that we all want are are not going to happen until States take them on board until governments actually understand the issues and action and the |
| 1:05:16 | problem the fundamental problem it's got nothing to do with the climate and then with climate change or knowledge with the science the fundamental point is that interventions that are going to address or or limit global warming it to any serious extent are going to change weather patterns the point that was already made earlier in this conversation and the mere fact of changing weather patterns is going to create winners and losers and the fundamental political problem globally geopolitically is that nobody no |
| 1:05:48 | politician wants to be picking the people that are going to suffer and that's that's where the problem is because if you pick the people that are going to suffer there and you act on that then you have an obligation to compensate them for their loss and we don't like doing that no forgive me I'm just thinking maybe Donald Trump can save the planet we probably would it would be a much much less populated Planet but he would he'd just say we're going to put clouds in we're going to cool a place down |
| 1:06:21 | you're going to be flooded you're going to die over there and you're going to but America will be okay so but at least someone will survive it will be done we're in prison will be screwed will I yeah if they have clouds if there's clouds in the sky yeah so no don't that anyway so let's let's cut that close because he doesn't he thinks it's all the Chinese hoax anyway because they'll shot each other by then so what was I gonna say um so my point I'm trying to make that's |
| 1:06:58 | right so let me just ask one more question because we need to move on uh Marine Cloud brightening um there are lots of clouds in the sky we're going to come back to my pictures so the point of this thing uh Robert is is to try to make the to do something like this so that people see that this is what that this uh beige picture here is meant to be you know it's just a picture of you know lots of warming and then when you go like that then that goes down by two-thirds so a cooling intervention you know something |
| 1:07:37 | that gets rid of greenhouse gases and adds more clouds is meant to make that less I mean that's a very crude thing to say but it's less crude than the ridiculous rubbish that's going on at the moment um uh okay so with brightening clouds let's go back to my Japanese picture here [Music] only certain clouds can be brightened as I understand it Stephen I think this this has been discussed but I can't really remember and I I did so I couldn't have understood what and it's low-lying it's stratocumulus clouds |
| 1:08:11 | isn't it that add particles and and they go brighter but certain ones you can't do that with I don't understand what is that about well if you've got to get the particles into the cloud and if the cloud is very very high you can't get stuff up there you can get stuff into all the places where there's turbulence in the troposphere so we're assuming that what we put up will give a fairly even distribution through the troposphere which is where where that'll work but it can't go above |
| 1:08:39 | that that's that sort of thing okay so yeah and we're also saying that if we're doing it in the winter in the Arctic that's not going to help much reflection either if there's nothing to reflect it might even stop stuff going out from the in the long infrared web so you've got to have some coming in and you've got to have um uh you're got to be able to get your aerosol into the cloud layer which means it's got to be where there's turbulence to get it up okay so that's that's the thing really |
| 1:09:14 | turbulence you've got to have turbulent air to mix it up in the cloud that's right now just like stirring your cream in your coffee yeah that's a wonderful um uh analogy I like that in fact every time I step my because it stays doesn't it and you have a coffee machine and it's and they're separated and I have to stir it every time that's right but the cream doesn't get into the air above the coffee cup no it stays in the air no it can't get into the air if it starts off in the liquid and |
| 1:09:48 | you're stir it it'll get through the whole of the liquid and it will not get into the air above your cup um yes what's the point of that it said sorry just trying to explain that we're only able to get it into the the troposphere you're not okay not the stratosphere then okay yes okay thank you for making that clear got that okay what else have we got so let's move on to thank you just before yeah yeah I keep coming back to Steven's comment once said he said that increasing cloud cover by three percent uh will it |
| 1:10:28 | reflect enough heat to stabilize global temperatures I mean that that sounds quite doable I mean I I know we're working against cloud loss with with added warming that's that's the only counter but three percent that's I mean that's that's what we're that's what we're trying to do here is that correct Sue if you if you if you double the number of condensation nuclei in the cloud the reflectivity goes up by about 5. |
| 1:10:57 | 8 percent okay that's for doubling the number of nuclei if you then double it again uh which is now a lot more to do the second lot of doubling it goes up by another 5.8 percent okay but we've only got clouds over a some fraction of the the ocean surface and the best number that I've got for that is by uh Charleston and Lovelock who were talking about this from the point of view of phytoplankton and they said that we've got low clouds but not high clouds over 18 of the oceans all right so we if we can only do it where |
| 1:11:37 | there's uh uh the the the the low clouds then that we've got to take that into account we can't do it over everywhere yeah yeah and so that that picture uh Stephen of clouds uh this picture here is that where you where there are no clouds is that because there's no supersaturated air there uh well it could it it got at the uh you've got to have the relative humidity a bit above 100 depending on how big your aerosols are and if it's below that then you you'll be getting a clear Cloud but you might have a place |
| 1:12:18 | where there is High Cloud where we can't get their stuff too or at least much more slowly okay we don't know whether the gaps are because there's uh there's no aerosol or because there's no uh uh the relative humidity isn't High Enough yeah it's not high enough at low enough altitude for the turbulence to get it into get the aerosol into it yeah yeah okay thank you now the other thing that's interesting is that there's an enormously wide range of uh of effectiveness at least a factor of 10 |
| 1:12:55 | from where you've got really nice clean air for up to where you've got the wrong humidity uh to where you've got no sun coming in so uh by knowing where these places are you can get a much much better bang for your buck and we we are in a position where we can tell everything about the the any spot in the ocean about its humidity and about its air cleanliness and about the solar input so we have all the information there and we should concentrate on putting different regions and different times into a a sort of a |
| 1:13:35 | marriage orders if there are different kinds of Power stations comparing how to pay to get enough electrical energy into the grid and they have they have a marriage order and they can choose at any time which is the best one to switch on or switch off okay yeah okay so it's it's not just as simple as put some things put aerosol in there you've got to find the right places at the right times yeah and certainly if if you look at long-term averages like a month it could be that in in one month's uh there's 10 nuclei |
| 1:14:10 | per cubic centrine and another another part of the month was 90. now if you average them you might say that there's 50 but you don't want to be doing it in 50 you want to be doing it in the 10. yeah so that you can make a big difference so you can actually it would be a lot better to do that yes you double it and you'll get five percent more reflectivity uh if you want to be a bit more accurate it's 1 12 of the natural log of the aerosol fractional change okay with a 5.8 comes from it's 1 12th |
| 1:14:44 | of the natural log of the the fraction of the change that you're made in okay all right I think we'll come to you if we need to do calculations um Steven's done work to write up the modeling that he's just talked about and a small little team is supporting him to get funding and I just wanted to get everyone give everyone that um braids that's sort of Hope or practical status report where are you up to and um I don't need to say more than that except that obviously Steven's done massive work and he's got a little team |
| 1:15:24 | around him helping him uh write it up really for funding excellent funding and doing great thank you I will I will send Clive a very short note which is an abstract of a longer paper which was itself was an abstract of the work done by Sean Toomey which will explain to you how to do the calculations if you know the the not the numbers of the aerosol thank you I've I have seen so thank you I mean it might be I've seen some of your things before and I've used them I've gone through them and I've understood them so it might be |
| 1:16:02 | nice for it for you for everyone to get them yeah um yeah uh I just so I still need to put some more into Excel basically but yeah so okay all right so let's move on thank you very much Stephen that's wonderful and I heard that um Daniel Harrison's got a billion dollars now for his uh Great Barrier Reef a billion uh do you say ability well I did um just kidding but certainly the Great Barrier Reef Foundation has a billion and then the distributed like various people okay thank you for putting me right on that job Rebecca |
| 1:16:46 | this is how this is how it all goes wrong isn't it people like me just sort of Twisted a bit or without realizing I'm saying it wrong yeah uh okay but anyway there's money available so that's the best way he's well founded he's definitely well funded there's no question yeah and he's Managed IT politically he was saying he's he's sort of said oh no no we're not going to save the planet we're just gonna do some experiments too let's see if we can protect the Great Barrier Reef |
| 1:17:15 | that's right well the other thing is this this group might not be aware but there's a massive organization called The Marine Cloud brightening um scientific community and they had a conference in Brisbane the other week with about 100 attendees and X number of papers it was over a four four or five working days so it really is a big thing um that and Daniel was presenting at that mm-hmm great so this this I mean we could talk Doom and Gloom but there's fortunately there's some wonderful things happening |
| 1:17:50 | in certain places thank you for that um uh Rebecca right uh okay what do we got next um we've just got 15 minutes so that's a lot of time on it so we've got to did you want to say let's have Doug actually with uh the Earth's fever and uh so we'll spend the last 15 minutes talking about Earth fever and um framing about um a friendly letter Doug please this might take less than 15 minutes but so I'm going to start out with just something that maybe brings us all together I'm sure pretty much everybody |
| 1:18:27 | here has had their mother or their grandmother give them a sponge bath or some alcohol rubbing alcohol uh rub down or maybe in the extreme you've had a doctor or a nurse put you in an ice bath or something that more extreme but the thought occurred to me that's what mother earth needs she has a fever she has an extreme fever and what we need to do was cool her down so I mean how I think most people in the world have experienced that um so it's a very simple message the question is how do you get it across |
| 1:19:03 | um I in the chat I've listed a bunch of organizations and individuals who I can't see now because I switched from my phone to my laptop but I just added democracy now and they did an interview with Bill McKibben and he says says the same old same old same old just reduce emissions and all of that um but the message I've given to uh Dana nucatelli Dana nuchitelli is a young journalist with Yale climate connections and we have Amy Goodman at democracy Now Bill McKibben Dan Rather was my latest one I gave and I put it in the chat I |
| 1:19:41 | think you can see it in the chat did Dan Rather I actually had six people like like herb there's there's herb still here I don't see her um herb had three out of 300 people I got six out of probably thousands that really liked my response and uh just this morning as soon as this climate Lobby posted something I put it there and also on 350. |
| 1:20:07 | org so I'm putting it everywhere and it's it's a simple message you can read it but basically I'm saying you know we just need to cool cool her down until we can get the uh the root cause fixed you know the same old same old but it's it's couched in terms of uh rubbing alcohol okay rubbing alcohol what about a a lovely kind of kind of cartoon picture or something a friendly picture of ground like you're saying Grandma who's wilting um Grandma's got a picture look pictures a bit like planet Earth and and she's |
| 1:20:40 | got some kind of parasol or something with clouds sort of hanging around this parasol that's and the Sun is beating down and it's keeping the Sun up and she's just about survive something like that do you think well actually that um I'm not kind of on the fence with that it's kind of like taking your clothes off oh okay uh you can take your clothes off the wind blows on you and you evaporate and you cool so I'm saying you got to do more than take your shirt off or your your clothes off uh |
| 1:21:13 | it's a little bit ambiguous but the parasol is a way of cooling yeah uh that would be good but I mean imagine I mean everybody has a grandmother that doted over them with a sponge you know whatever yeah I think I think a cartoon like that would be great but in simple words uh because a lot of these places they don't want to see cartoon Dan Rather of course you know he's a journalist and Bill McKibbon and Amy Goodman they're journalists yeah you've got to be you've got to be on their own terms but it's |
| 1:21:42 | got to be simple I don't know just mull it over I just I have no idea it's just just an idea I came up with a couple days ago um so did you say that you're in contact with Amy Goodman actually I did an interview with her uh one at Standing Rock uh Winona Leduc introduced me to Amy she was there and she did an interview for about 15 minutes it never appeared any place that I know of but it was when I was involved with Rex Tillerson or my tell Rex campaign and I don't think it fit into her agenda but uh uh I |
| 1:22:16 | don't know Amy personally I have talked to her one other time when she was in her car waiting for a ride to go someplace but she would not know who I am okay so so Doug I can't help noticing that that's that's evaporation right cooling by evaporation and then hopefully convection or whatever you know to but which is which is not you know what so it's the other for it's it's what what Sev has been calling thermal radiation management rather than solar radiation management which I'm a big fan I mean |
| 1:22:47 | that's that sort of emphasizes what uh hpac has been saying about you know multiple techniques and we've got to cool the oceans we got to cool the accumulated heat and all the rest of it uh so but but it may be a little bit of a problem for folks who want to cut the current inflow of heat through through uh you know directly reflecting uh of sunlight but anyway you know that's so the I like uh for example I mean we all know uh Robert tulips a very evocative metaphor of the the tourniquet uh stopping the bleeding planet and then I |
| 1:23:25 | mean that that's more General but anyway well that's it Envision Envision being in a tub full of ice and water at 32 degrees it's you know it's like a polar bear swim that's not that that's definitely thermal that is direct Cooling and my only objective is not to get into the technology but to say we've got to cool the Earth in addition to all those other things and so that's my focus but it's the presentation and you can read what I wrote um swipe across the uh the uh chat there but um you can |
| 1:24:03 | actually go and I mean I'm buried amongst 300 comments on Dan Rather so it's kind of hard to find but it's there and uh but if I just want to put that out as a seed okay I know it's a tourniquet it's it's CPR and it's direct Cooling I don't know how easier to say it it's more simply to say it okay direct cooling it's that's right thank you very much Doug that's that's all good um we've just got a few minutes left um to talk about a friendly letter and framing Stephen please |
| 1:24:42 | um well there are there's this list of 120 objectives who are I think trying to gang up on what's going to happen at the next cop and I was wondering whether we could uh make contact with them in a very friendly way to try and explain what we're trying to do and uh I don't think it will be very difficult to track them down we've got their the names of their organization I think we put that into Google we will get quite a lot of emails that we can send something to uh and I'll I'll be |
| 1:25:18 | doing a few experiments but they're wanting to have people contact them and we can be some of the ones who are contacting them all right where is that Stephen did you is that in the chat or somewhere that uh it was circulated to one of the I can't remember which one it was but I will make sure that uh I send Clive this list and he can put he can forward it that to you they're not email addresses but they're enough that you would be able to get to an email address like a website or something no there's |
| 1:25:56 | 120 of them yes and they're objecting to what's being proposed at the next cop you're saying are they they're opposed to any form of geoengineering so does that mean even carbon drawdown uh not pass on that one I haven't seen that in fact what's kind of geoengineering is being proposed at the next cop uh again I don't know okay um it wasn't easy to get anyone introduced at the Glasgow one which I tried to do I think they're they're the IPC is like considering it that they they have in |
| 1:26:31 | their report considerations of that of it as a you know a highly risky but something it should be researched anyway in the latest ipcc report but are they talking about um just uh stratospheric aerosol injection is is sorry I'm probably the the three in the in the and and Nas you know srm's uh uh CCT and and uh Sai oh I'm mcbsr mcbsai and CCT are the three I doubt if some of them know what the differences are between these yeah but I don't even know what CCT is but CCT serious cloud thinning oh yeah |
| 1:27:13 | right okay yeah I mean that that at my reading of the letter uh was that they were using the term geoengineering to refer to uh technological and natural CDR I didn't see any reference to geoengineering as we understand it in the letter whatsoever I mean maybe someone else did I read it fairly quickly but it was to me uh just you know an amazingly bizarre letter and and Blasting geoengineering uh you know the Geo engineering being you know sort of uh regenerative farming is geoengineering and uh the dacus |
| 1:27:51 | geoengineering Etc but as I said I didn't see any geoengineering in the letter well publication increases geo-engineering but just it's which direction they're trying to do the engineering um it's a Fool's errand to rail against the edifice of geoengineering we're never going to convince half the population and you know let's heed the words of Buckminster Fuller uh you know if you want to transform the world build something new and we build something new if it's rebritening the planet or |
| 1:28:30 | something else and let others go on their merry way and if they attack geoengineering we'll just say well how did you get here did you did you fly an airplane in what way is that not an act of geoengineering did you drive your car I mean this these are the acts of geoengineering and unless you vote with your feet and start changing your personal lifestyle you're you're guilty of geoengineering yourself so uh you know paint the brush whatever black but I think we need to build something new and I just also add I just put in the |
| 1:28:59 | chat a link to the letter uh with a list of signatories beneath it right one of the things that you should pay attention to is the heading of the letter because it's specifically focused on article 6.4 of the Paris agreement which is all about carbon markets and the um the internationalization of those markets of it so that credits in one country can be used by purchasers in another uh so that the whole thing is framed in terms of the uh the marketization of carbon credits that's what it's about |
| 1:29:35 | rather than specifically about geoengineering although they bring it in it's a very confused I mean I think that uh Anton's comment in his email alone today about it was um was generous yeah I mean also the what struck me is is particularly bizarrely ironic was that the first signature was from 350. |
| 1:30:02 | org yeah so yes so you're you're against any CDR and we're at 420 and your goal is to get the 350. please explain it's like you know now I've written to 350 uh a year ago because I or I looked at their National website and it said nothing whatsoever about how they plan to get the 350 so I wrote them and they wrote me this sort of very defensive email back basically saying well we're not you know we're not involved in any of the science stuff we're just involved in activism but you know it's one of those questions |
| 1:30:37 | to you know that Doug and I have talked about in terms of not that that bill McKibben is not directly in involved in 350 but he did start it and it's it's just one of those bizarre paradoxes that make no sense whatsoever to somebody like myself hmm you're just trying to underscore what herb said um May boobie who's now the executive director took over for Bill McKibben sent out a letter basically responding to something I delivered personally into their mailbox up in in Burlington um I intentionally did not go in because |
| 1:31:14 | I didn't want to get involved but I gave them several several charts and basically the message was what we are talking about what is your value I thought you were going for 350 exactly like herb just mentioned and she sent out a a an email just a couple days ago basically answering the question and won't you please give us 25 it was a donation request let's reduce emissions we got to get to 350. |
| 1:31:45 | couldn't believe it they don't get it they don't get it yeah yeah so I I agree with Brian uh it's just good to be reminded keep being reminded you can fight to get you can rail against these people and can fight against them and say look you're wrong and this is why but it just doesn't make any difference um create something new well could I say this there's a move against Cole um planning meeting and celebration in a week or two and I am friends at one of the organizers and I'm haven't decided |
| 1:32:17 | whether to go but if I do go I'm going to say something even if it's laid back so anyway I will let you know if I do go it's in about 10 days obviously I do sorry that's what it is it's called move Beyond it's called move Beyond coal and they're trying to stop Mining and fracking um but anyway so if I go to that I'm going to say whatever I like about what I'm doing as well or what we're doing very good very good all right folks thank you very much for coming along today uh for your time and |
| 1:32:50 | your wonderful comments and everything see you again in a couple of weeks thank you sure welcome my pleasure much obliged thank you everybody bye bye Doug do you want to talk John uh looks like um he doesn't it hasn't looked at my emails because both the dates he suggested I couldn't do these are ones I I said I cannot do those so yes sorry guys I'm gonna go but are you getting the meeting chat before you go are you I'm sorry to be a dumb dumb uh it gives me it's okay no thank you I can't do it |
| 1:33:36 | on my phone that's all it's Zoom uh gives me the chat it automatically it makes a folder and it puts all the chat in so all I have to do is just oh that's so lovely yeah okay yeah you guys have um I didn't agree with Sid today but I kept my little piece we've got to disagree You can disagree you know you can speak I know it's okay I know yeah I know it's the time was the issue plus I'm really thinking it's if I can if we can spend five minutes on this stuff we are too close to being the pfj the people's |
| 1:34:10 | front of Judea and blah blah I love what Robert Chris did today and you getting to the fundamental technical side of it I found Doug's analogies absolutely |