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| 00:09 | hi Brian are you there Hi H SE good to see you it's good to see you anyway but it's also good to see people because all this links silly thing it's all right C you've got some Meats we'll turn up you know I never know for sure it's always positive what Brew while you're there yeah hi Ursula glad you could hi go glad you got the link yeah um what do you think about large buoys as the Americans boys sitting in the ocean thousands of them Spread spread by sort of 20 kmers making Air Assault brighten clouds would |
| 01:02 | would that be allowed if they if they had a ton of if they let's say they weighed two tons each would that be too much of a hazard for shipping no because thing of that size can determine where it is yeah it'll transmit its position such like uh however there's considerable problem putting in some parts of the ocean which are sing deep yeah that's right yeah they they I think they' with that number they'd have to sort of drift around and they would have to go and H yes put them back in |
| 01:32 | the right place transmitting voice and such like I actually don't see any trouble with the deep deep anchoring with some of these modern Plastics you can get a very very strong anchor cable made with a very little bit of a of plastic and you just need a a lump of bar concrete on the end of it okay that's interesting thought it can be done I mean you got some quite substantial currents in places which um you know these things are are most in around in the in the water at two and a half and three knots you know but they |
| 02:06 | take maintenance but no okay all right thank you very much that's that's um one question ticked off my list that's great um so I think it's just about time isn't it already uh okay well good uh morning good evening everyone welcome back I think uh let's just have a look you know Zoom keeps changing all the time I find it difficult so what am I doing it's people at the top today is it is it does it do this to everybody else rather than at the side I can't move everybody around t for |
| 02:48 | me maybe if I get it on to share screen then everyone's at the side all right that that'll be fine that that'll do for now there's just five people today I'm sure there'll be more coming later you can see people con already so right so this is the thing I I I think if if people want to determine the agenda then you have to come at the beginning this is my thing I was teaching today um you have to uh be there at the beginning agenda so so hi Jonathan nice to see you what do we want to talk about today |
| 03:33 | everyone in the Noak meeting I've just had a um conversation with y y he's wanting to um decrease evaporation I want to increase evaporate transporation which I think will call the world much more than decreasing it have we got any thoughts on on which is right I know I know increase it has uh number of effects some positive some negative but I believe they're they're mainly for the good okay um I've got things to say about that but um let's just leave that to later so Set uh uh is it does is evap transpiration |
| 04:20 | good uh yes yeah transpiration good okay um what and you're saying there's also the question should it be increased should should well if it's good it should be increased if it's bad it should be decreased but I believe it should be uh uh increased substantially but um I'm not quite sure what yay is on about right okay I I think I do but let's let's come back to that then okay vapo Transportation so Global let's say this is what what we're really talking about y okay anything |
| 05:09 | else uh now I wonder that the fact that we've only got um how many people okay it's filling up uh hello new people John McDonald hi meta good to see you meta I'm going to be coming on to one of your things or two two friend and I later this year in Fe in June indeed yeah and uh we spoke to your people couple few days ago last week uh um David Price and Robin and Friends okay so what so this is this is a chance to influence the agenda what gets talked about today and anyone can ask any question or POS pose something |
| 05:53 | or highlight an article or you know just as I say in the um email Helen I could see a name Helen there and um I guess you may be from the uh from the hpack list um I don't think we've seen you before on the NOC meetings where we actually meet and just speak openly like this and just other than having an agenda we we just talk are you there can you hear me Helen would you yes I can hear you can you hear me yes very good thank you yes hi Clyde yeah I'm Helen P I'm uh one of the Mir volunteers one of the Mia did you |
| 06:33 | say ah okay yeah working with Y yeah yes right right great is it does your camera work are we allowed to see you uh my camera works I'll have to rearrange my laptop here okay don't worry about it that's okay leave it what's your can we are can I can can you can you give a very brief intro what's your background Helen well my background is actually in uh uh data architecture I've worked a lot with data I'm retired um from the federal government the US federal government uh as dat and analyst but I'm |
| 07:13 | working from here as their they call me their strategy officer so I'm helping them right now with um how to frame the mirror work in a way so that we can get um grants and proposals written very interesting very sounds very useful frame the gr the Mir work to get grants and proposals written who doesn't need that okay thank you very much Helen and actually that's what I do as well data architecture and data analysis lot okay great um okay what else do we only want to talk about evapo transporation today |
| 07:54 | if if that's all we want to talk about we could actually finish early well well CLI perhaps we could we could also add to that discussion that the sources of cloud formation U you know the combination of evaporation uh DMS breaking waves this I mean it depends on so many factors but just been everyone's thoughts of just what of the main sources of cloud formation pretty fundamental really yeah that's a question very close to my heart at the moment as well yeah great a good won that thank you uh okay uh anything |
| 08:35 | else well I I guess I'll mention this I uh I'm really here to listen not to talk but I will share with you that my current enthusiasm is to um check out the possibility which is very remote and very unlikely uh being able to organize a Citizens assembly to discuss the pros and cons and the acceptability of using um uh Technologies for cooling the Arctic and any kind of geoengineering in fact the general principles and uh I I uh was planning on doing a project that involved um focus groups but uh I don't |
| 09:20 | really want to do that I I put it in to please some other people and uh and now that I don't I didn't get the money for for the project I I won't uh be doing that but I I I'll I'll go for an even Wilder idea which is uh a Global Citizens assembly uh which would um and I have no idea whether it I mean it has something like that has been tried once uh at I think the cop 28 26 uh meeting but uh I don't know any of the details of how it worked and of course of course the funding uh to to have a project of that kind would be |
| 10:04 | very daunting but I just want to put it out there in case other people just happen to be bling brimming with the same uh particular crazy uh aspiration and we could get together and talk about it okay that's basically all I want to say I don't think I have anything more to add uh later but if anybody has any interest in that uh we should talk offline right so um okay so you're interested in organizing is have I got this right here a symposium to discuss geoengineering a very specific thing a a Citizens |
| 10:44 | assembly which would be Global in scope and um uh uh difficult to to invite people to to I mean to choose the people it's very very important to get a representative sample of the whole human population yeah and that is of course if we had such a thing it could be quite a convincing and interesting uh public stunt to show people what people can think about over a period of six months or a year as they listen to and deliberate about the issues uh after you know okay in cooperation with Specialists such as the people here on |
| 11:27 | the screen okay so let's have this on that sounds a great one to have on the agenda to make sure I get to that that we get to this um and uh who knows you might have more things to say when people pitch in on what they think about that as well uh uh Ursula I saw you had your hand up oh um yeah I just wanted to say that um um following what um meta was saying I I I really don't think I mean the public probably have very little idea or have not even heard about the possibility of other possibilities um |
| 12:03 | you know you know the geoengineering possibilities because the powers that be don't want to talk about it or even um consider it um then then the then people just don't know about it and don't know even that it's a possibility I think um just at large just as me me speaking as a woman on the street you know this is what I'm thinking that I really don't think it's got any profile at all amongst the general public everyone's just should we talk about it first then let's ret talk about put that at the |
| 12:32 | beginning of the agenda and um we we'll have you talking about it ursila um because I don't think you're suggesting another item for the agenda are you I think you're you're I'm just backing up what absolutely you can't wait to talk about this so let's put this at the beginning um I'm I'm being very dis very um what's yeah disciplined here to keep the agenda process of building the agenda first um thank youa so let's um get you involved right at the beginning on that um mana mana Joe you |
| 13:04 | have your hand up yes I just uh want to be I want to share that I as a member of the larger environmental Community am getting um more and more uh objections uh for example uh friends of the earth and others um are doing campaign active campaigns now against uh bio and Geo engineering and I I wanted to just make people aware of that okay all right so we'll have that talk about that as well anything else maybe these three things is enough sometimes we only have time to talk about three things because they expand so much um okay so let's |
| 13:50 | begin on this then uh um having having closed everybody down I've now got to try uh try boot you all up again as it were um so okay any comment then on what meta just on what Mana Joe just said that there's all these organizations such as friends of the earth uh saying um they don't they think it's a bad idea to have um climate repair and I would also just like to add that um uh there are now states in the US that are passing uh legis ation prohibiting uh geoengineering okay all right do you know why what their rationale is for |
| 14:40 | that what's the reason for prohibiting it that it's dangerous and that's just a quick summary I can I did let Doug and he let uh John Nissen know um and I I sent specifics there um I don't want to start um kind of a a conflict but I I just did really want to let people aware a be aware that it is uh gearing up uh you know I got two emails in one week one asking me if I wanted to be the coordinator for the effort and I declined right so my question is do they say any form of geoengineering you know anything that's |
| 15:34 | that's aimed to save the situation or improve the situation is baned they're all as bad as each other on principle are they saying that or or do they distinguish between different forms of geoengineering well uh for friends of the earth um they are just starting a campaign and so I think it was pretty vague uh the the two uh pieces of legislation one of which has passed um it might it's one of the New England states they're both New England states um and I can send that around because that is a little bit more specific but |
| 16:14 | I've been working on a lot of things so I I can't give you the details right now but I'll send it around okay great thank you very much Bruce yeah the um to provide thinking the thing that's missing from the discussions on geoengineering is are the assumptions and that the I think the climate site has been very poor giving us um what might happen if we don't do geoengineering and and how and how bad the situation currently is I don't know how you put that into a paper somehow but when people talk about |
| 16:49 | geoengineering they say well it's going to be really bad but they don't realize how bad it's going to be if you don't and how how how we articulate that to say if we don't cut emissions rapidly enough and what you the pathways are on what's going to happen y absolutely thank you yeah and um and just on on principle if you if you're not allowed to because we had this you're not allowed to take um CO2 out of the atmosphere for a long time no no no no no that represents geoengineering so our |
| 17:18 | comment at the time was well you better stop taking plastic out the ocean because that's going to encourage more plastic pollution isn't it yeah uh Robert Chris hi Robert good evening good evening I'm sorry I missed the first few minutes of further meeting but hope that can catch up yeah yeah I think that um the point you just mentioned Clive is one of the major reasons that uh is is so often cited against ding which is this uh fabled moral hazard argument uh and it's something that people simply |
| 17:47 | don't they don't really understand and it's been extraordinary the way in which this particular tune has been played over the years uh and and abused frankly because it is it is essentially based on a misunderstanding uh about what oil companies will do or fossil fuel companies will or will not do if given the opportunity so the the fundamental argument is well if you if you say that we can sort this out by doing geoengineering then the oil companies won't need to stop producing oil and this is a completely fallacious argument |
| 18:23 | because it's not one or the other it's absolutely both and it gets back to the point that uh Bruce was making that the whole argument or the whole issue about GE engineering is not presented in terms of a risk risk analysis it's not a risk about nobody ever asked the question how risky would it be not to do this they only say oh well there are risks Associated well there are risks associ there are risks associated with getting out of bed in the morning maybe we shouldn't do that either so you they're |
| 18:53 | a very very confused story and I think the the real real the real problem here goes at the root of it is to do with the fact that over the years the um the very uh attractive option that was on the table back in 1990 which was we can sort climate change out by reducing our emissions has got so deeply ingrained in the psyche of the political establishment that they haven't been able to kind of shift from this and understand that whilst they've been pursuing this objective in the most frankly pathetic way the ground has |
| 19:35 | shifted from underneath them so that whilst that may have been an appropriate response 30 years ago it absolutely is no longer an appropriate response because of course things have moved on and it's very difficult for them to acknowledge um the fact that the ground has shifted because it requires them then to acknowledge that they have failed spectacularly over an extended period of time and this of course is very difficult for them so you've got all of these um factors that I think are are building against um the |
| 20:08 | geoengineering story and fundamentally they come down to what the critical issue that I don't think that we have made sufficiently clearly and certainly has not been made clearly by the ipcc is exactly what is the risk that a uh as herb Simmons uh puts it uh that an an emissions reductions alone policy what is the risk that that will not Deliver Us from the evil of climate change and of course nobody asked that question because there is the working assumption that Net Zero by 2050 is the solution that's kind of the unquestioned |
| 20:54 | proposition and to Embark Upon A a case for geoengineering requires you to jettison the notion that Net Zero by 2050 is a sufficient climate policy and since that has been so enthusiastically adopted by the world since the Paris agreement in 2015 uh it's a huge huge ask to get them to change their position but I think that our Focus has to be in the short term in putting together a really comp compelling argument that explains why emissions reductions alone will not save us from climate change even if we |
| 21:39 | got there tomorrow and that that case has been put in part in various different ways Hansen has certainly done a reasonable job of doing that in his recent pipeline paper but the threads have not been drawn together in a way which enables that story to be told uh in a compelling and clear manner on a broad canvas so that's my contribution to this okay thank you very much Robert that's very clear while you were speaking I was thinking um meta we've had these conversations in these noek meetings quite a few times before well |
| 22:15 | at least one you know twice I would say but we've had these going back a year or two now the thing is um I'm sort of time limited time limited but the other thing is I've said promised people that they can just speak openly can just speak their minds that this will not go on a in a sort of public um website or you know social media however I think everyone's aware so the thing is that I would love to take things like what Roberts just said was very clear and put it in a separate video If with his |
| 22:49 | obviously um uh permission uh so that everybody you know so that's it's globally available but I tend not to have time I've always got a long list of things to get back to you know um you have people I think working with you meta uh who put things together would you if if people gave permission I should say explain to people I have by now produced uh God at least 30 shows about ways in which people hope or believe they can affect climate change with technological or other uh for things like reforestation or better |
| 23:32 | use of of of cement and rock dust and that sort of thing but mostly uh on technologies that are designed to cool the Arctic keep the Arctic refrozen and uh I am I've done uh at least 30 shows on that an hourlong conversations with experts and always with the input and the questioning of various people especially members of the Canadian pugwash group who are astute but not technically so uh I expect in the next starting next month I'm going to produce 25 shows this year uh hourong conversations with experts uh about |
| 24:17 | primarily cooling the Arctic and uh I had intended to have it followed up by focus groups people who would be watching the show and then commenting on it so we'd get some idea of what the general reaction of the uninformed population is uh but uh I'm I'm not going to be doing that now uh for fund reasons funding reasons but also because I think it would be vastly superior to have a true citizens assembly somebody asked me what a Citizens assembly is there have been I I believe the oecd has uh published a report on so far 600 |
| 25:02 | citizens assemblies that have been taking place around the world right now for example macron has one going in France on global warming you may know about it these things can last any length of time uh a year or so I think the French one is meeting in the French citizens uh you know the assembly whereever their Parliament meets I can't remember the words for it so on but uh Ireland did one to decide whether or not to support uh abortion and um the important thing is to get a a completely perfectly representative sample of the |
| 25:40 | general population that you're you're inquiring about and that is extremely difficult to do uh that of course is is almost may be impossible but we can um we can approximate it by uh getting lists of of of people and you who have cell phones and can uh confer by zoom and then hold a in effect A legislature so to speak a a group of people considering a a topic people who know nothing about the subject originally but who listen to uh experts for a whole year and uh call in anybody that they want to confer with uh get advice from |
| 26:25 | or uh and so on so they can ask for any kind of input they want and then at the end they reach a decision a recommendation and in some cases the governments have actually promised in advance when setting these up that whatever the outcome of the citizens assembly may be they will uh enact it with legislation so of course we're not going to have anybody uh any government in the world certainly not the UN General Assembly uh even if it had any power which it doesn't uh no no legislature right now is going to promise to let's |
| 27:02 | say adopt uh new technologies for cooling the Arctic if if uh our recommendation turns out to be uh to that effect however uh it would C it would carry a lot of weight it would attract a lot of attention it would be very very persuasive if we could say that after listening for a whole year at least several hours a week to disc and discussing this among themselves because the extremely important part of it is that uh that the uh the people making these uh decisions should all deliberate and consciously discuss the topics |
| 27:44 | freely for the length of time that is required the system came from the method that Athens was ruled by it's the only true democracy that we know of uh in uh any government uh National you know whole government but but it has there I'm reading a wonderful book by a guy named Maurice Pope who was a classicist at at Oxford who wrote the history of Greek democracy and I tell you it's it's extremely convincing that this would be a a very feasible and that the people who do this take it seriously and and by and large |
| 28:25 | however nutty they are when they vote in nor ordinary elections actually are quite astute when it comes to holding these deliberations over a long period of time okay that's all you say so you're saying it' be great if it did if it were happen if the funding was there um what I'm saying is uh and you've done these shows many shows last year you're saying um did they go out on YouTube are they publicly available absolutely yes um I'll put the the link I have 500 581 of them on my website wow I will post |
| 29:00 | right here on the chat and and how many views do they get each sort of thing oh that's it it really depends on how long a period of time because uh the first week or so there might be uh within the first couple of days there might be a hundred uh over a period of a year or two it people will accidentally keep bumping up against it and watching them and uh we have on our website we we get up to 3,000 visits a day but that's not that I it doesn't tell you very much about how how much of the shows they |
| 29:38 | watch but uh I'll post the link and and everybody can go there and look at the the ones that I've already produced there's a scroll bar on the homepage so that you can uh scroll around and look at for a topic or a person that you especially admire some of your friends in fact you're there Clive uh maybe somebody else here I don't know I think we're gonna get Robert Chris one time soon I believe he's on our agenda anyway uh you can you can find them there and I'll put it in in the chat and you it's |
| 30:09 | easy to find just click on them and it opens the window and you can watch the show right there okay great thank you very much meta uh breu Brew you've had your hand up for a while yeah I was gonna say um a lot of this comes down to the funding and throwing Dirt On The Water by the den industry um the conspiracy theories are really easy to promote and you look at the the the chemtrail uh stuff that went on and was spread right around the world they found it very easy to get that financed and if you follow the money back and look at |
| 30:51 | who's been funding that you get into the same um Lobby groups that were involved in the to backo and been in the in the hydrocarbon denile side of it so you know that that's that's one of the key drivers behind this the part of the antidote to this of course is that um geoengineering and a motive word and covers a very very broad subject base so we try to talk about restoration and push the point that the geoengineering experiment has been carried out by Humanity particularly since the start of the Industrial Revolution by adding all |
| 31:34 | these greenhouse gases to the atmosphere so we're we're looking at remedial work and that makes a lot more sense to people and I think we often you know open the door inadvertently by talking about geoengineering when we should be putting that focus on remal and undoing the bad you know if you talk about removing plastic pollution everybody says great um you know we're talking about removing atmospheric pollution and so it's the the way we frame these things is is much more important um the um a lot of the big |
| 32:12 | groupings green piece and others have been say infiltrated but they they've ideas have been put into them about the the danger of geoengineering um this comes in from you know Republican side where it's these things have been stopped it's um you know it's highly politicized and you've also got the ugly hand of religion in here um you know God's Earth and we shouldn't do anything about it and religion is just bloody ignorance that makes me so angry um you know please everybody start listening to |
| 32:51 | Chris hin and all of his wonderful webcasts and spread it as far as you can sens you might have some Christians in yeah yeah it's I didn't my son in the background here is doing his dissertation telling me to be sensitive yeah but you know there comes a time when you've got to stand up and shout um okay okay BR you've made your point and that's very clear SM faces nobody's actually shaking their fist at me yet no what's that Robert I said we're all too polite actually there's a I think |
| 33:30 | there's I was quite amused at what Brew is saying I one of the things that uh the British uh find a little challenging is the degree to which we have become so secularized whilst our American cousins uh have gone the other way and so uh talking in these terms as brew has done just done is uh is is a very dangerous path to tread when we're talking so openly to our North American friends friends it's a very different culture out there I have to say that I don't understand either but that's the way it |
| 34:04 | is yeah okay thank you uh mana mana joob please yes um I I wanted to suggest that we have some responsibility in that I don't feel that we've really produced accessible information on Global Climate science and uh created a context for people to make a decision uh you know weighing the risks uh of doing or not doing uh various forms of geoengineering specifically uh cooling the the poles both the Arctic and the Antarctic but so I think there's a real need we tend to Talk Amongst ourselves and uh I think there's a real need to |
| 35:02 | develop um a an outreach program I think uh what meta is doing is very valuable to people who will take the time and listen but I also think we have to uh for example um contrails uh Chemtrails were mentioned and there's something called the dimming which conf flates um the Chemtrails or contrails with um with stratospheric aerosol injection but it's very compelling and we need to Fig and it's the kind of thing that floats around on Facebook and Instagram and a lot of people watch it and I I think we need to |
| 35:53 | really focus on uh making the information accessible and posing uh the question of the risks of doing versus not doing and that's where I'd like to um put energy is into uh creating a context so people can make an informed decision yeah okay have you seen um did I send you my um that's just speaking from what I'm I'm doing that Ena um manager uh my frequently asked questions it was on our climate Catalyst but but a lot of it doesn't really relate to any particular thing did you did I send you that PDF ofing off ask |
| 36:43 | question I got quite good feedback from yeah I I would appreciate you sending it again just because I get so many things yeah okay all right I'll do that okay we'll do um Jonathan please oh thank you um so I put some stuff in the chat um I put a definition there of uh of the citizens assembly or at least Jonathan Jonathan as usual you're a long way from your microphone and you're really difficult to hear Let me give it let me get another try um or just lean forward towards the microphone for now um sure I think I think this is |
| 37:24 | towards the microphone that's a bit better that's little bit better is worth doing I can't see the microphone oh better yeah um and uh there's the definition for Citizens assembly or at least the startup one I'll taken from the uh Extinction Rebellion website and then uh there's this interesting uh site climate view. |
| 37:52 | org with this interesting fellow Jim and uh I've been watching him for some years in the beginning he was uh balanced in his anti or Pro geoengineering stuff but it looks like his audience has got towards the anti and he's the one that's been spearheading this thing in New Hampshire where they are trying to make a a little a little law about the intentional release of chemicals into the air and um I think that it's interesting he does a really good job of bringing together all the uh information that can be found |
| 38:33 | on the web um I've learned things about geoengineering that I uh didn't know uh experiments being done in in obscure countries and stuff like that so he's a great U combiner of information or bringing it together so you should check out the site um maybe his earlier videos because now he's you know more anti but he's the one spearheading this thing in New Hampshire and U it looks like they'll so everybody should uh check that out looks like they'll they'll what did you say it looks like they'll probably pass it |
| 39:11 | they'll pass the law okay so you've put this link in the chat uh just the link to his website not the link to the New Hampshire what's the guy's name uh well Jim Lee for short James Frank Lee Jr okay all right so that's the thing to look out for everyone y okay UHA I thought thought you had your hand up oh um yeah I was just gonna um just very quickly just um just really um say uh that you as Brew was saying that the messaging is is is and um yeah that the messaging is so is the key isn't it and as other people |
| 39:55 | have been saying as well that um for everyone to to um understand clearly um what the risks are and of of of geoengineering and not and also the way we um talk about it so for example the um like last week somebody had um the project was it Rachel had a project with um uh Cloud um re re brightening rather than Cloud brightening so that you know this idea that Brew was talking about as restoring to restoring the climate to where it was before so removing you know that's right that's that's the key thing and nobody's talk |
| 40:36 | whereas when you talk about Geon engineering it's just this idea that there's this bunch of crazy scientists who are gonna just do something really mad to the you know really risky and and really um interfere with nature you know all that stuff that that has that whereas what the messaging is so so important isn't it and the way it's it's framed this the whole thing um so people really understand clearly that's right uh the I would say that there's uh given that no one no other hands are up |
| 41:08 | there's several moving Parts here um Jim Hansen is saying that uh the as far you know he he him and his team are suggesting that the the the Earth uh has warming this the warming has accelerated um uh in steps with the removal of pollution especially from Shipping the thing is uh so you might think well why can't they just say well look obviously it has and the reason is because the the temperature that jumps up and down all the time there's a lot of natural variabil variability it's a very chaotic |
| 41:44 | system and it's difficult to see the signal through the noise um and uh so this is what scientists have to deal with a very very complex system and so you can always kind of pick part of it and you know cherry pick and say this is this is going to cause problems and so forth but he's is in disagreement and Robert Chris wrote an article with Hugh hunt who's also comes onto these things that got into the conversation saying that there's this this disagreement between two top climate scientists so |
| 42:11 | it's very difficult for policy makers to know what to do and whether to favor geoengineering when the other guy pressor Michael man is saying no no no no no it hasn't accelerated we're still okay you know as long as we get Net Zero within the next whatever it is I don't know 203 or 2040 or something then everything will just calm down and everything will be fine Jim is saying that's not going to happen you know these there's a disagreement right at the top yeah and Jim Hansen has said in |
| 42:36 | his last uh he sends out these um Communications sort of about every week or something like that or two something like that um um that so he he's saying that the measurements later on this year are going to be pretty clear it's going to become pretty clear to you know any decent scientist what is happening whether it really has accelerated uh because that is very important for policy and uh so that there we go so he said that and and so I think his view is that we'll just have to wait we'll just |
| 43:09 | have to wait for the warming to continue further until it becomes so obvious that the the scientists will then be able to agree and say look the warming has accelerated so the policy needs to be that we need to repair the climate uh so thank you very much for that that Rula and I think anything we can do between now and then to prepare Framing and make it uh understandable to people because it's complic it's complex you know I've tried to do this to make it simple uh and it's difficult to do because there's so you |
| 43:41 | know have to think well you know what shall I what shall I simplify how how much can that be simplified you know is that does that constitute hiding something you know hiding some important aspect that people should know about because scientists going to say well you haven't mentioned this you know and and then that makes it too complicated people say oh sorry I haven't got time for this goodbye so you have to keep people's attention and it's it's not easy to do so yes I'll send you my um I |
| 44:08 | could send what I have done I haven't quite finished almost any of it properly because people give very useful feedback and they'll they'll say what about this what about that you know uh you think you got especially you've got numbers wrong and things so but I so I'll always caveat and say this is unfinished Robert um please thank you Robert thank you Kai I just want to add a couple of comments to what you just said because it's not just um man and hansome are the problem here or the |
| 44:42 | difference between man and Hansen there are a number of other very prominent scientists uh who also uh whose contribution to this discourse is also problematic so you've got people like David Keith who is possibly the kind of the the uh the head man when it comes to certainly to stratospheric aerosol injection uh who as we know from one of the sessions that he gave us in the haac group um is [Music] very very comfortable with the situation he doesn't think I mean he's obviously very proj engineering but he's no rush |
| 45:22 | we got plenty of time um there's no crisis no need to Panic um tipping points tipping points people talk about tipping points but they're not a they we don't to worry about tipping points so you got him you've got Lenton and his whole cabal of of guys at uh exitor a university who have done an incredible job over a very long period of time possibly now perhaps 20 years who have really done the research on tipping points and have written some really good stuff on this but there I think I believe almost unanimous position |
| 46:03 | is the imminence of tipping points is not an indication for the need for geoengineering oh no certainly not you know uh you know I don't get this because one of the things about a car crash is that uh well two two things about a car crash one is how fast you're approaching the the cliff or the wall or whatever it is you're going to hit how faster you're approaching it and how close is it well you know they seem to feel that all right we're approaching it quite fast but um you know it's uh it |
| 46:36 | isn't a problem so we you know we we we've got time so and then you've got people like do they justify that Robert I it's just I have tried to get to the bottom of this and I all I can tell you is that I have yet to get any serious understanding of where they are coming from Tim Lenton has written a little bit about why he is opposed to geoengineering and it is essentially a one-sided risk argument why would you do something that has such potential risks but he doesn't seem to have balance this |
| 47:15 | question with his own risk analysis with regard to the Tipping points I find it really bizarre because these are not stupid people we can't just as idiots follow follow the money well if you look at and and the Providence of the people who are giving you the advice so James Hansen huge long history come out now independent saying exactly what he thinks were the benefit of all that time David Wasdale independent huge amount of work on Earth Systems and then when you get back into Tim Lenton and you get the people in |
| 47:49 | exitor and the Met Office they're all looking for the next Grant exactly Yan rockstrom same thing yeah Michael man similar situation and Michael man's Provence is nothing compared to James Hansen's you know he got got lucky with some articles about coining hockey stick and immediately is regard as an expert but I know it's true very ordinary position then you've also got you've also got um the other another English guy Kevin Anderson who's a really good guy brilliant and you know amazing |
| 48:22 | really positive I mean a really insightful comment commentary about the uh about the social science aspects of of geoengineering and climate change generally U who is that sorry his name is Kevin Anderson he's a professor at I'm not quite sure where he's a professor somewhere leer I think Edinburgh yeah leester I think but I yeah but you'll find him Kevin Anderson he's a very very very prominent commentator put his name in the chat please uh but he again is absolutely dead set against du engineering again |
| 48:55 | you know mean the and I think what we need to do is we need to get together with these people sitting around a table and have a chat with them and you know not a public discussion where people are exposed again Robert you using the word geoengineering which is um covers pumping stuff into the higher atmosphere at the same time replanting of trees and carrying out very benign uh restoration um impacts um two totally different levels of risk very very different levels of risk with different solutions um so I I think we we we need |
| 49:33 | to make sure that people understand what's been spoken about well I think there there you see there are the problem with this whole discourse is that it tends to get scrambled so immediately you start talking about GE engineering people start talking about the risks of a particular type of GE engineering you know you got all the problems with this or all the problems with that and it's a kind of of stirring Mak making the mortars muddy but the first thing you got it let's forget about the technology |
| 50:01 | just put the technology away just ask yourself the question are the solutions are the approaches are the methods that we are currently pursuing to address the threats of climate change are they sufficient to that there is a hopefully a kind of pretty straightforward answer which is yes or no in our case I think we were generally regard it as being no and if you accept then that the current process is inadequate then you have to ask well what else is there and is the what else there is going to help is it going to |
| 50:38 | make the situation overall less risky and then you can start talking about the Technologies and so because most of these Technologies are what social science social scientists like to call imaginaries you know they don't actually exist yet in any to any serious degree and many of them don't exist at all except conceptually so um you know we need to kind of get the cart before the sorry put put the horse before the cart in this discussion and not allow it to be sidetracked and and and derailed uh by um raising concerns uh about |
| 51:13 | Technologies which are nent to say the least uh and which have plenty of opportunity uh to be developed in ways that are much you know which which will help and if they're not going to help then we won't use them but you won't find out about whether they're going to help unless you do the research but you know to say or it might be dangerous so I'm not going to look at it is um a form of denial that's yeah really unproductive yeah I'd rather just die then so okay rather than potential to |
| 51:42 | save myself with something might be a little bit dangerous you know I've got to jump across that crass and might fall down in in the middle um no I just won't even bother you know just let the let the bears eat me here yeah um but um the thing is that even that there's argument over isn't there Robert um we say um look there's you know these look look here there's these tipping points um there's going to be cascading tipping points in the next several decades that's how I'm putting it nowadays in |
| 52:11 | the next several decades which means um U uh you know disastrous disaster collapse of civilization or whatever and people say no no no no no because Net Zero you we need to Triple the amount of Renewables that's as long as we just double down on making more Renewables then that's going to solve the problem and then you have to then explain about this whole thing about mineral resources and possibly even people here would disagree about that um mining capacity mineral processing and it's not clear |
| 52:44 | because because there's again lots of money in in shrouding that uh so that has to be made I find I find myself constantly looking around for resources to to get this make this clearer well whilst whilst you were talking in the last 60 seconds you and I and several other people I haven't looked at the whole the whole distribution list received an email from vua uh and this is for those of you who don't know V is a a Dutch guy that is closely associated with the club of Rome uh and is very Pro very Pro G |
| 53:23 | engineering and is pursuing kind of a a political process uh um in uh Holland in the Netherlands to uh Advance uh ge engineering on the international scene and uh we've just name in too Robert please in the chat well actually what I was going to do was I was going to copy the email but then as I was about to do that it's a very long email so well let's let's just look at the beginning of it Robert if I if I uh um thing to let you share your screen um okay fine let's just have a quick look we don't have to look at the whole |
| 53:59 | thing okay I I'll just share my screen Brian I've noticed you just got your hand up so that you next so you want me to share my screen share screen about uh Vander yeah something gotten now there we go okay so here's the here's the email hopefully you should be able to see this yeah okay so we s to King number one me number two you number three Clive uhuh right John niss Sean Fitzgerald Steven Suter okay saying he talks first of all about the fact that the um so what what's the bottom line of |
| 54:43 | what he's saying here what's the big line is that they're organizing something uh they're getting it all together and they want us to participate and they want us to have a look at their YouTube thing which is here okay and they want us to organize the following steps uh to uh here we go let me just highlight those so I haven't read this myself so okay so this is not a private thing obvious well you've shown it to us now not private he sent it you know he's he's getting out there selling what he |
| 55:18 | is doing they call it he calls it Plan B and it basically it's about what we're talking about it's about doing something yeah reframe this whole argument and to present it in the places where it's going to make you know it's going to make a difference yeah forward it to our to the group to hpac okay H pack asking for 500 Plus members in a year so clearly they need to speak up yeah yeah can do continue a thousand days of internal debate but press this political Button as well please so they're asking ask us to act so |
| 55:56 | absolutely this is not this is not a private email I would no no no no great great ex they're doing they're doing a job here I'll stop sharing now yeah okay thank you I I'll I'll post that um what's the best place on hbac or Noak or both or no doesn't exist as a list anymore I've merged it it's merged with hpac okay well I'll forward it to hpac great thank you yeah people will getting too many duplicate emails Brian please thank you Robert yeah Brian I'd like to ask the question maybe it's worth um |
| 56:27 | moving beyond the framing of geoengineering in the following sense if you want to spend a decade or three debating and having controversy do something controversial geoengineering is controversial if you want to um you know uh make progress uh I think what we want to do is uh build something well I don't think there's a lot of controversy over people wanting a healthy climate for their oh no we've lost Brian that is tragic uh okay well hopefully Brian will come back very soon um Bruce uh the Noak website can you remember the um um oh |
| 57:15 | you're there Brian we lost you um okay what what was the last think we lost quite a maybe 20 or 30 seconds what last oh gosh can anyone remember the last word yes he says he says if you really want to do something you do this right okay you really want to do something I mean what what we focus on what we might want to consider focusing on is something that we have a great consensus about and that is who doesn't want a healthy climate for their children for their descendants and how do we get there that that's a key part and from |
| 57:52 | that you know we can we say well we we were a known place in the last century where we did have a healthy enough climate that we could develop civilization um maybe there's some steps we can take to get back closer to those uh pre-industrial climate levels that were known safe guidelines that were within planetary boundaries and then we can identify those actions that we can move forward with with a great amount of social acceptance I mean I don't think any of us here are particular experts on winning uh academic debates about |
| 58:25 | controversial topics you know if you want to debate something for a decade or three choose a controversial topic but we don't I mean I think we're a lot more committed to action and if we are committed to action let's choose a framing that's non-controversial enough to be fundable and that means getting back to a healthy climate it means doing so step by step and doing so with a a deliberative and Democratic process perhaps deliberative you know conversation about the things we can do to take action on sooner and maybe this |
| 58:59 | group that it was mentioned these 500 people or whatever it's a chance to do that but I know square one if you want a bunch of like giant groups like Greenpeace and nrdc going down your throat and attacking you call it geoengineering I mean let's just let's like open up the conversation a little bit let's talk about a healthy climate for our children and let's get Beyond this limiting framing of geoengineering it's like in what Universe does that get us to healthy climate in our lifetimes I |
| 59:27 | mean it's just the opposition you'll spend your whole life fighting people there's no point yeah thank you I mean thanks there are people who say oh no you've got to call it geoengineering because um you know otherwise you're being dishonest you know people say oh oh you know it's it's not geoengineering if it's accidental you know it's geoengineering is the deliberate you know whatever but it's like okay look maybe in the last century we didn't know that flying airplanes and driving cars |
| 59:55 | and polluting with coal power plants was you know was GE geoengineering but now we do right so if you're going to go take another flight and you're gonna go drive another fossil fuel car that is a deliberate act I mean that the word's out right so it's like let's call a a spade of spade or whatever we're gonna call it let's say you know this is uh you know and it acts from now on get on an airplane you're committing an act of geoengineering all right so let's really really talk about that and and and paint |
| 1:00:27 | that brush and say now let's talk about getting back to a healthy climate for our children okay let's just use that Framing and get beyond all this prevarication that we've seen in the last 40 years and and get towards some real action that can actually get us to what we need because I think the reality is time is now I mean the planetary time scale is exceedingly short and we need to find ways of moving framings that enable us to move forward with actual ual deployments like we're doing in the |
| 1:00:57 | Western Pacific um and a dozen others that can get us to understanding what approaches work and I I just encourage us all to move to a greater framing that can bring a common mindset and actually build a lot of social acceptance that we'll need in order to get the the local community support indigenous and first nation support globally that we'll need to uh to succeed in scale great thank you Brian and um you've managed to raise quite a lot of funds uh for own projects so you you are someone we should people |
| 1:01:27 | should listen to um who's good at framing yeah CL Clive this is Ron uh Ron bman sorry I'm is is someone else in the queue or well Robert's got his hand up I can't see you at all Ron I guess yeah I can't because I'm on on on driving mode all right let's hear from you briefly because we we're still on the first topic yeah yeah no it's it's it's it's related to that so in reference to what Brian just said uh the problem is it's a paradigm as as Annie POA has been pointing out very |
| 1:02:00 | very eloquently it's a paradigm issue and sometimes uh you know as I I was a so I've been a socialist in the US for decades and for for decades it was it was absolutely verboten even mentioned that word in in you know in uh in Main in in political circles and established political circles and then Bernie came along who's been advocating that for years and years and years and completely flipped that as so that for the younger generation anyway nowadays it's it's become quite popular so I mean it's and and and |
| 1:02:32 | Michael Harington you know one of the leading uh us socialists for many decades used to say you know you you can try to avoid the term but people will tar you with that anyway you know so we've used direct climate cooling which you know I I mean we were Brian was part of that discussion where we decided we should we should have a broader term and a different term than Geo engineering oh my grandson is here and um uh but anyway so so that that's the problem there the second point is that um in terms of action I applaud what |
| 1:03:02 | Brian is doing I absolutely agree we need action action and so uh I just would would say that you know with the bunker fuel letter with action is three-pronged in my view there's tropospheric Aerosoles that we need to promote in whatever way we can there's uh short-term species emissions like methane that we need to cut uh you know as fast possible because they have a almost immediate cooling impact and then there's direct climate cooling so there's three prongs and at least certainly methane reduction is not |
| 1:03:34 | controversial uh the bunker fuel thing is right now but I mean it's getting a lot of play and perhaps your work Clive and uh you know the Marine Cloud brightening and other work we can we can sort of uh get over that hump but you know we need uh so I you know those are my two points great thank you very much Brian uh Ron sorry thank you Ron and yeah thanks for your work which is we see something about that every day now about the your letter to um the I the international Maritime organization um urging them to allow um ships to um to |
| 1:04:08 | produce aerosol from their that produce Aeros sare in the high seas far far away from coastlines so that's um gaining traction it seems uh Robert and then let's move on to our other topics yeah I just want to I just want to uh Express a word of caution I'm always kind of taking a negative view I know but um as as uh heartening as it is to hear what Brian has to say about how we should uh reframe this whole argument there are two things I want to say first of all um there isn't just one reframing it's |
| 1:04:42 | necessary we need a reframing for each of the audiences because uh people are not a homogeneous uh homogenous group and people have got different people have got different ideas and different uh drivve and they they they have different understandings and we need to be much more nuanced in the way that we approach this subject than simply thinking you know there is a framing we need to think of it like this or like that we actually need to think of it in a whole bunch of different ways and present those arguments clearly and the |
| 1:05:14 | second comment I want to make is that um whilst I agreed totally with what Brian said I had a major major problem with it Brian which was that it was too gam intellectual it was too conceptual and and my experience of this whole topic so far is that that's the death nail you know I remember I think it was last week that we were on another call with Doug Grant and he was moaning about his son who uh is basically not interested in climate change and regards the whole thing as being a complete you know just |
| 1:05:51 | don't talk about it and offline I was expressing my sympathy with him because I have two grown-up Sons exactly the same so we need and and the reason is that people have got there busy with their own lives and they're worried about you know their income now and bringing up their kids and what school to go to and you know all this stuff and I don't am I really interested in how people are going to live in 100 years time do I really know what the climate was like 150 years ago do I care haven't |
| 1:06:21 | I got other things to worry about so I think we these are the problems that we are battling against all the time and it requires uh some very sophisticated uh thinking and it requires I think some marketing skills that are not present in this group well I I I take exception with that Robert we we I I agree with almost everything that You' said okay um we've used marketing skills to actually get traction and do and to do things now you know it's a modest success but I think it's something that we can scale and |
| 1:06:55 | leverage and you know I I agree with your point to the audience but there's there's one thing I think that's very important and that is yes we have to make it simple enough and for people to understand but I would ask what is too complicated about wanting a healthy climate for our children I mean there's a common message and maybe that's let's refine it let's make it better let's just find out what's uh what's the disagreement is between the two of you here Robert do you want to come back on |
| 1:07:24 | that well I'm not sure what the point was that Brian was disagreeing with so no I I'm telling you I'm agreeing with most of it except the part where he says oh your message is too complicated well what's too complicated about wanting a healthy climate for our children transcending our own lives and ensuring that we can continue civilization beyond the next few decades yeah what's too complicated about that it's a question of priorities oh yeah all right you know that's like motherhood and apple pie of |
| 1:07:51 | course I'd like but i' of course I'd like a healthy f with my KS but right now is that my top priority is that something I'm going to really spend my time thinking about and investing in well let me say Robert I don't think someone who doesn't you know give them a monkeys then they they're not the target audience so that's when I hear marketing that's what I hear is find your target audience you know a lot of people they're just anything at all do we clim never mind climate or geine anything |
| 1:08:19 | doesn't matter what it is they're not interested they want to watch the football that's it so they're not the target audience so find your target audience and then I think Brian is talking about once you've got the audience the the message would that be yeah and so here's a key framing the psychosocial stages of development include Transcendence and so your sons Chris and others may be mostly focused on their IDs and their egos and getting enough money to have a family okay but our audience right here right now I think |
| 1:08:49 | we're asking the questions about Transcendence how do we transcend our indiv individual lives and ensure a continuance of civilization for the future and and that's where I am personally I'd like to encourage all of us to be thinking about Transcendence yeah I there are many people in in that who've you know reached that point Brian many many people around the world um that are desperate to know what to do what can I do you know can I understand this I keep hearing how terrible it's going to be I |
| 1:09:19 | don't know what to do you know it seems like the fossil fuel companies are acting against us don't know to do they're the target audience to me that that's the people who have reached that state of as you say I would let's call it Transcendence I'm happy with that that that are in that state and and we talk about framing frame the message for them because they're the ones that are listening I mean I'm going to make a terrible War analogy for a moment and that is people signed up and recruited |
| 1:09:46 | for World War II they transcended their personal safety in to believe in something greater that we together can overcome and I would suggest that we're facing a similar crisis in our gener in this in this century and the question is how do we call people to transcend their personal their personal you know World their lives their next growing every day Brian every time so the audience is growing every single day I know every extreme event we have every new house that's flooded out every tree falls on a car every you know |
| 1:10:27 | massive wave event you have on the west coast of the states every it's becoming apparent and the level of future anxiety amongst the youth is growing like mad I had an opportunity to speak to Extinction rebellion in traela square a few years back and there was one after another saying how bad it is but there was nobody putting forward Solutions and I stood up and started putting forward Solutions and it was extremely well received by that audience you know so you can go there and the starting point is actually |
| 1:11:01 | getting people to understand what's broken because if you don't know what's broken you can't fix it Andre then you can start promoting how you're restoring it and putting it right we can carry on this conversation for a long time because it's a fascinating I think an important conversation but I'm GNA make my last comment on it now promise yeah I promise I promise I'll say this no it's anything else that um the one dimension that we very rarely talk about and it to me is the most critical Dimension is that of |
| 1:11:32 | power because ultimately this problem of climate change is not going to be satisfactorily addressed unless the people with the real power to do something about it are convinced that they should act and the problem we've had in the last several decades is that they haven't been now all of these good people that are concerned about having a you know a a nice climate for their children are not the people or mostly are not the people with power they may be people that can influence the people with power by their |
| 1:12:07 | Vote or by other forms of political support but they can only the vast majority of them can only do so indirectly so yes we need to do the things that Brian was talking about but we be we we really need to be very very focused that we should only direct our limited resources and energies to those arguments and those discussions that have some chance of touching the people in power okay and I would offer I would Embrace that and add one response and the response is simply that I think they can get a lot of social acceptance and |
| 1:12:47 | more actual support by focusing on solutions that can be somewhat or largely decentralized because if I can see one ill in our civilization right now is an over centralization of power and wealth in our organizations in our governments in our Academia and in our tycoons and you know we've put the robber barons to shame and our Challenge and our opportunity is build distributive Technologies like fax machines in China that are decentralized that actually the more decentralized the better the greatest invention of the |
| 1:13:19 | last century arguably was the internet and that is highly decentralized it's designed to survive a nuclear war so let's design some decentralized technologies whether it's permaculture on land Marine permaculture in the sea or Reb brightening the planet one community at a time decentralized approach are so powerful so let's let's consider that as well thanks okay thank you very much Brian okay so um and uh so look what you did met we spoke for an hour and 10 minutes um on your suggestion thank you very much for that |
| 1:13:52 | and I hope there's something you can takeway so let's move on to uh thank you everyone for all your contributions there um to uh so um let's see we could speak for many hours on this one from you John which I'd love to talk about um seev uh let's let's talk about this because we've talked about clouds quite a lot in the past I don't think we've talked too much about evapo transpiration so this is slightly uh unfamiliar topic for us let's let's go for this one can you can you put up an |
| 1:14:22 | excel's blank Excel spreadsheet yes yes I Canad let's put a blank one up yeah yeah there we go now one column good right one column bad right right make them a bit further apart maybe like that yeah okay now the the bad bad things about Veo transporation are the um the mere argument that you lose portable water storage through evaporation from dams right but the good side of of evapor transpiration on the same thing is that you increase the the amount of gentle precipitation uh very greatly and therefore you increase um both um the |
| 1:15:21 | water stores and the the so let's do one at a time then SE so we're putting up good and bad here the good aspects and the bad aspects so the bad is bad is lot of water pable water from dams okay that that means drinking water doesn't it potable water from dams okay yeah um oh sorry just a minute um that'll do all right dams like that yeah good is yep is you increase the amount of gentle precipitation into the amount of gentle precipitation precipitation into um uh sow on the Himalayas um water storages and how do I |
| 1:16:15 | make this wrap is there a way to make it wrap here we go R text yeah precipitation into what uh hip mountains rivers and and mountains and ice sheets right uh rivers and I'll say Mountain ice sheets how about that oh they're separate actually all right mountains the sheets are in the in the cold areas okay rivers mountains now okay another bad thing is forests have lower albo than deserts right let's have make these we don't want to have a comprehensive list we'll have one more of each shall we um |
| 1:16:58 | uh seven and then we'll talk around the subject so Forest forests are darker than deserts yep forests are darker than deserts that's a bad thing about evapo transpiration is that is that what you're saying here yes but also Forest increase um uh convection water vapor and clouds um and uh Heat going off Planet uh Vapor this is good I've got to wrap this one again uh water vapor uh water vapor in clouds was that and um heat and heat of Planet heat did I get that right leaving a planet like this y yeah right okay |
| 1:17:52 | right my my point here what is to say that who has got the the oceans produce an enormous amount of evaporation that the oceans are more than double the size of the all the land mass put together and an enormous amount of evaporation happens on the oceans and lot of just P you know rains in the O rains out in the ocean um so who is saying that they're going to be able to increase evapo transpiration what what scope is there the the surface area for vapo transpiration of plants right is as great or greater than the ocean surface |
| 1:18:30 | area okay okay all right thank you so that that's very good answer thank you very much that's very good quick answer so so uh the scope then in that case what you're saying uh SE is more plants is much better even though they've got even though you you you you losing evaporation of dams is is an important thing the far greater maybe maybe a thousandfold greater is increasing precipitation yeah yeah right I've just emailed everybody um Peter buard and Rob DT's um very excellent paper on how |
| 1:19:16 | forests cool the planet or manage manage the the global temperature it's it's an excellent read okay so have you seen that seev that that link and I agree with it fully okay all right so what what is the bottom line then that is it mostly a good thing um I think by powering away it's a good thing evapo transpiration by from increasing plant life then have I got that right there yes yes uh how do you get a loss of potable water froming plant life CL restoring plant life from restoring okay restoring back what it |
| 1:19:58 | was from restoring did I have that to begin with yeah all right well anyway there it is now evaporate transporation from restoring plant yeah back where it was got it now okay so um so the bad thing about that bad thing about restoring plant life is you get a loss of drinking water from dams how how come is that because you sort of dig up your um those big uh Lakes from dams and you just demolish your dams is that is that what what that's about no putting mirrors on dams oh mirrors reduces evaporation ah right so hang on this is |
| 1:20:37 | this is to do with mirrors as well y actually if you put floating solar on dams you reduce evap transpiration but you also collect gigawatts of power that can drive industry and civilization right let's get this clear for everybody this is to do with these solar panels is it solar panels or mirrors what are we talking about here we're not just talking about restoring plant LS same same effect both both reduce evaporation from dams reduce and cool water so reduce evaporation from dams yes corre so if you they reduce the evaporation if |
| 1:21:21 | you're if you're reducing the evaporation from these big you know Lakes made by a dam then surely you get more potable water not less right that's right you do get more water that's why so why is that a bad why is this listed here so this is saying loss of potable water it's it's reducing evaporation okay from the lake itself yes this is very confusing because we're talking about about um increasing the the issue here being increasing plant restoring plant life well that's part part of the reason |
| 1:22:01 | isn't it okay so okay just have it just leave it as a vapo transpiration not in general okay in general yeah can I just interject here yeah I'm feeling very sorry for John McDonald because he's only got 10 minutes now I know well I don't think we're going to be able to talk about can I suggest can I suggest that we park this Appo transpiration thing to give SE an opportunity to to put it together in a slightly more structured fashion so that we aren't inventing it on the floor good idea do you mind Sev can you will |
| 1:22:35 | you accept that seev sure sure we'll do okay great and then um and and I I'll send that to to you so you can uh put it up as a big list yeah okay and send it around um and maybe have the conversation offline with people and then bring it to uh this meeting great okay okay thank you much thank you very much for that and uh good idea uh Robert okay so um let's go back to this so this is what are the sources of cloud formation we have discussed this Steven Suter has explained this but we're still |
| 1:23:07 | we're all learning more all the time about this so do you want to start talking about that John please well we yeah we probably won't need 10 minutes but although we could um and it follows on from what s's saying um many of us of course here interested in in Marine clouds particularly Str accumulus clouds um I'm I'm particularly interested in the sort of percentage split between the different sources of cloud formation and I think it's I think it's roughly speaking about 80 90% evaporation off the oceans and in about |
| 1:23:41 | it's about 5 to 10% breaking waves and about one to 1 to 5% from DMS from from pH Plankton so it's it's really just the the question I mean it depends on on the uh specific environmental conditions you know atmospheric conditions different regions and so forth but that's I think that's the rough split uh between the between them and I just wonder whether everyone agrees with that Clive you could add to this um and also just to add uh what to what SE was saying another source of reducing evaporation |
| 1:24:17 | on dams is uh microbubbles you can microbubble dams It's s work that Russell sites has been doing and that's that's interesting way of reducing evaporation but but just in terms of the split uh cloud formation is that generally what we all agree is roughly the split right the thing is clouds that they let's just start from the beginning clouds are due forming on little on little um particles tiny tiny microscopic particles and the reason the due forms is because air is rising it it rises up and as it rises it gets colder |
| 1:24:57 | and colder we know that as if we go high up a high up amount it gets cold this is what happens the whole atmosphere gets cold as you go up at least until you get very high right and and and so it then you get this sort of due point where the air is can't hold the water anymore so uh it it forms DW on these tiny particles and so you get a cloud um and these tiny particles um can be or kinds of things as you said salt that's salt particles that um you get SE sea spray and these little droplets are so tiny |
| 1:25:30 | that they don't really fall back in the ocean they just blow about in the wind and the and the troposphere is rather unstable it blows around and off it goes up it's got rising and and and falling currents and and they evaporate somewhat but then when they get get up really high again they they attract water again because it's so sort of wet up there you know it's called the super saturated layer or the due point and so the other thing you mentioned was DMS from uh so D methyl sulfate which is one of the things that |
| 1:26:02 | comes from F plants it's a f PL is a big source of that and oxidizes it makes actually makes sulfur dioxide same as what the ships produce and then it makes sulfuric acid and sulfuric acid as as a molecule dissolves in water very easily it's very highly attracted to water and makes you know that's what makes the sulfuric acid as a liquid and this once you have a certain amount of of of sulfur sulfuric acid in the air it gets into even tiny tiny tiny droplets and it makes them easily grow so one of the |
| 1:26:33 | things that Steven has taught us about um Cloud droplets is that when the droplet's really really tiny it's less than a micron it kind of has trouble growing because it's got so much surface tension the surface tension of a small particle is large enough to overcome its kind of ability to grow by by water condensing into it and so what happens is that there's this there's this kind of threshold Beyond which it's when they're bigger than the St threshold they they the these tranches of |
| 1:27:04 | particles are called modes so the the um what's it called the Akin mode is very so tiny that they don't very grow very easily and then there's the accumulation mode they're big enough to kind of grow it's a different tranch of you know of sizes Beyond I think it's 100 nanometers but when they've got um sulfuric acid in them they over they they so want water to condense into so that they grow much more easily so having uh having DMS which makes you know self furic acid in the air makes these particles grow more |
| 1:27:37 | easily and become Cloud droplets which means you have more droplets if you've got you know every every particle because uh what happens if you don't have that is you get what it's called inst inter IAL particles a lot of these particles don't end up growing into Cloud drops only some of them do which means your cloud has fewer droplets in it you've got these tiny particles that have become irrelevant and a small number of larger droplets and this is the whole thing about Marine Cloud brightening if you want to brighten the |
| 1:28:08 | cloud you have to have more more droplets and for the water to be shared out amongst them so so it's rather long answer there John but it's a very good question to to think about how how this works so DMs definitely helps for sure um sea salt for sure there's also uh I don't know if anyone's had a chance to watch I sent a link out um for an American meteorologist uh giving an hour's lecture on uh CL talking about different types of clouds and saying that in in the intertropical Convergence |
| 1:28:43 | Zone we get all these different winds got these trade winds and you get these great big circles going around in different parts of the earth and the hadly cells that we talk about as well but in the tropics you get these big thunder clouds because the air is rising it goes up and even with whatever particles are there in the air which isn't it's much less tends to be sort of 10% the number of actual particles over the ocean even though you've got DMS and F PLS because over the land there's always dust and there's all kinds of |
| 1:29:13 | things coming off the vegetation plant you know things that that that then become uh particles over the ocean it's a lot less so what is there nonetheless Rises up it goes up really high because there's this low pressures in the intertropical zone it goes up to make these big thunderclouds and you can see them uh they're great these great big things that can be as as the size of several American states you know they're hundreds of miles across and they drift all the way across the Pacific Ocean |
| 1:29:41 | sometimes in a whole great big long line um so that's that's that type of cloud and then other the the stratocumulus clouds are much lower down they don't reach up you know several kilometers they're just you know one kilometer and they tend to be you know s strator which is a great big layer which very effective at cooling um so any any other I've spoken for a long time any who else wants to add something you want to add something about joh yep you're talking about the the clouds behind Brew there that's |
| 1:30:12 | they're the St cumulus clouds they're coming off the ocean and yeah they they're growing some pretty tall sections yeah that's it that's right um Brian's head his hand up let's Let Brian speak and then you brew please Brian yeah thank you in answer to John's question there are several necessary conditions for steady state shallow Strat accumula clouds the first is a turbulent mixed layer which is commonly found in the bottom thousand meters of the atmosphere right above the ocean and |
| 1:30:48 | the second is a steady source of aerosols and that's where SE spray and DMS and other things come in so rather than thinking of it as 80% this and 5% that think of it as necessary conditions they all have to exist together for the clouds to form and so it's very catalytic in many cases when you're when you're limited by Cloud condensation nuclei um then a little bit goes a long way Can it can utterly transform the land the the landscape and waterscape and uh there's some great lectures on |
| 1:31:20 | this that I hope to share with Community uh in the in the near future um but I think it's important to understand all the necessary conditions for um the production of stratocumulus clouds that can actually help to cool the planet really significantly and get us back to health yeah great thanks Brian absolutely yep um and Brew please yeah sure um I've just emailed everybody a copy of how driving's paper on the Marine surface layer the the that really fine interaction between the surface of the ocean and the atmosphere and the way |
| 1:31:58 | that living things impact that one of the key points in that is that the the organisms are able to emit oils and substances and all sorts of things which form nuclear for cloud formation but also impact the amount and rate of evaporation off the ocean surface um now it's fairly Cutting Edge stuff but it's an extremely interesting read and I fear that a lot of what he is saying is probably right um the key to that is is his main concern is that microplastics are attracting all sorts of nasty forever chemicals which are extremely toxic to |
| 1:32:42 | marine life and um that's having a tremendous impact um he's now based in Panama and B Toro but sailed across on the arc race and did a huge amount of of collection between him and another number of other Yachts he saying this affects cloud formation as well Brew yeah yeah it it absolutely um it's the amount of evaporation that's occurring off the ocean surface combined with the emissions from living things so death sulfide and others right that control the rates and the amount of of cloud formation even so much is the the type |
| 1:33:23 | of cloud formation um which is part of the climate management system of the integrated biosphere um I I find the work absolutely fascinating when one starts integrating with other stuff okay thank you so this is Howard Dryden you put a a link in the in the chat have you I put a copy of the file and in the um uh on an email to everybody okay great thank you very much well that takes us to our 90 minutes any other burning points for anybody to make okay if not so thank you very much for very stimulating 90 minutes thank |
| 1:34:03 | you everybody and um see you again in in two weeks but we continue on emails and anyone can meet anyone else obviously it's wonderful that people have lots of other meetings see you in um in two weeks if not before thank you everyone sure thank you very much okay bye byea bye thanks bye great if anyone wants to stay behind in chat um I'll leave it running um otherwise we can just say goodbye that's fine did you want to talk to me friends you're you're muted right now friend but I can see you're saying no |
| 1:34:41 | you're muted uh you're muted friends you're muted uh maybe I uh no that's it yeah yeah I'll turn this thing off |