| (Click on a 'Start Time' to view the video) |
| 00:06 | foreign nice to see you all there I just bought this book uh oh this way how the world really works backlab smell and he just started reading it's really good I've read it you've read it have you yes um |
| 01:09 | it's uh it's mostly good but uh the uh what's good about sorry guys fix my light a bit um what's what's good about it is that it essentially explains why emission reduction is not possible and and uh so I think he provides a a very good account of uh the delusional nature of uh calls for a rapid emission reduction so uh like with the the ipcc calling for a 50 Global emission at 2013. |
| 01:49 | um it's a very good but he he doesn't engage at all with the fact that climate change actually is a problem Robbie sorry for interrupting but you'll look like you're a movie or something your life is not very good yeah on purpose no no I commented on that I said I said the light's not good but because I was talking I thought I'd just keep talking until I and turn the other light on um but uh yeah so um uh smells smells book how the world really works is uh Clive was saying he's reading and |
| 02:30 | it's uh it's it's helpful in terms of why the uh emission reduction alone gender is just completely ridiculous inside um but uh it's not helpful in terms of of recognizing that the clients sorry Robert I interrupted you sorry that's that's all yeah yeah he doesn't really say yeah he mentions climate change but yeah he doesn't really spell it out maybe because yeah okay yeah okay I mean I've only read a few a few Blitz I've seen a few references to that yeah uh hi Anton |
| 03:09 | and Anton from Seattle morning Anton I mean sorry hello I should say yeah I guess morning two years and thanks for your feedback Rebecca that's fantastic and I'll do what I can my absolute pleasure maybe you could give everyone a sound bite to get them excited it's meaning it'll come up anyway under my table so okay hello Stephen nice to see Stephen hi yeah and uh John McDonald hi and uh we've got a full compliment everyone yeah uh we've got John Sev Rebecca and Robert tulip all from Down Under |
| 03:56 | and uh there we go there is a sign Clark just while we're doing the majority yeah what's that there's a thing there's a thing called a morning Lark so obviously at the moment the Aussies are morning Max right yeah morning Lux yeah and uh I wonder if it's in some ways easier to start early in the morning than halfway through the day and I guess Anton you you run your own business don't you yeah I start between four and five A. |
| 04:30 | M a morning lock as well so this is towards the end of the day for you oh yeah I'm ready for uh pre-dinner right right okay so it's gone nine o'clock and uh so and welcome everybody so let's do what we always do and decide what we're going to talk about I could put down uh very briefly I don't think it's worth mentioning is it worth mentioning Rebecca we haven't really done anything yet just thanks to Rebecca for looking at something I'm writing about uh what we now call uh a a |
| 05:11 | artificial lust dust lust dust um formerly TOA to Titanium oxide the aerosol so with anyway um so and I've had feedback from a friend I was with over the weekend who's an editor and he's just basically demolished everything I've written and said good luck with that mate and told me how to write in a way that's much clearer anyway so I don't there's nothing much more to say about it than that so what what um when when we do my table or sorry the table of Technologies I'd like to just |
| 05:50 | mention your thing for a sentence or two that's fine yeah in any case um and I don't care whether or not I'm first but I would like to be last with a separate item which is um singing from one hymn sheet or in other words how to how to um just put it down a step because that was the last item on the Cambridge workshop and like if if either Robbie or Doug or someone doesn't agree on how I've described it but my the theme of it is consistency and um how to present our story in public if there is a story but |
| 06:25 | that I'd like that last one to be last on the agenda because I don't want it to take up all the time okay it's called singing from one hymn sheet so so that so no no that one stays wherever he wants to go yeah a separate item that's what I'm doing yeah singing from one hinship like this yeah beautiful I spelled that right yeah yep so okay there so the the early Larks was it get to put morning locks but get to propose agenda items any who else hi friends I like life debrief of the CCR Workshop fine okay |
| 07:19 | uh yeah uh CCRC yeah is it was it a workshop I suppose it was a workshop wasn't it yeah okay yeah okay I think Anton you you've got something really useful to propose tell a story and dive into something um but tell a story and dive into something yeah just a little bit about what I'm up to and why uh might be relevant to noack okay uh okay uh um okay well I'll just say what I'm doing that may be relevant to know it okay thank you that's great anything else yeah uh I talked to Clive and um about |
| 08:14 | to work with Anton developing a website for Nowak Ah that's uh Bruce yeah okay so let's put that yeah hi Bruce yeah Bruce uh Clive yeah oh sorry I'm as usual you know running in my my phone's going crazy but yeah but uh uh if if people are interested I would like to talk about some of the strategies for for Polar Cooling that you know that came up in the in the Cambridge in fact the the whatever happened in the Cambridge seminar would be quite interesting I think to hear from folks who attended it but yourself |
| 08:59 | I believe and others right let's put that up here then right Rebecca did you want to I wasn't clear do you these two items should they be next to each other um I would Technologies go es okay I think that makes sense yeah I think this is a sensible flow okay anything else well okay let's go with that then uh oh Clyde this is Doug I'm uh sitting outside and going and I'm going to turn my mute on but I would like to add have some discussion about what was said during the during The Works um during the work group about if you |
| 09:51 | want to cool the Arctic you've got to cool the tropics okay uh pull the Arctic by cooling the tropics thank you okay sensible um okay thanks Doug okay so do we have someone that can do a debrief on the ccrfc workshop someone attend the whole thing I suppose you did Robert tulip yes I did um let me can can you stop the screenshot yeah and uh go and sorry and I hadn't asked uh Anton but so when we get to sorry carry on and I'll ask Anton to introduce himself when we get to his part sorry bro but please continue |
| 10:44 | right uh so uh the uh Cambridge uh set of climate repair held a um a workshop uh last uh Tuesday uh sixth of June on uh uh Albedo enhancements and rephrasing the Arctic and uh it was uh hosted by uh Hugh hunt and um Gerald and um uh opened with a series of uh technology presentations from uh mainly from PhD students working especially on brightening as a main focus um it's included presentations on uh stratospheric aerosol injection by uh Johnson and and Andrew lockley and um and a presentation from Clive on on |
| 11:40 | mainly on social um and then uh then in the afternoon there were discussions on uh on governance of uh of climate change and and also a tour of the assault water laboratory at Cambridge where the the two PhD students who are who are working on um the research to produce a sub Micron spray for marine Cloud brightening their uh their laboratory uh so um overall um a a very interesting uh day it's uh really welcome that that Cambridge uh I chose to engage with um the uh the community of uh of people a number of people who are here |
| 12:36 | participated online so uh the the ability to uh to have it as a hybrid uh meeting uh was useful uh Robert Chris uh spoke in the uh in the concluding uh session uh together with uh verta I forget with Aaron and um uh so um uh quite uh quite useful discussions um so uh that's uh also uh uh a very uh Pleasant uh dinner the night before and at the raft did you learn anything new uh I think the difficulty of of achieving some Micron spray was uh was a really key uh issue um also um we had I was able to have quite a |
| 13:32 | good discussion with Hugh and Sean about the uh the potential uh cooperation with Stephen Salter in in Edinburgh and uh Stephen is is making good progress on establishing his uh Workshop um in in Edinburgh to work on a range of of manager uh topics and uh and so um the uh the whole question about how to promote uh investment in Marine Cloud brightening was the subject of quite a bit of a discussion so so I think it's interesting that uh that Cambridge has choking chosen to uh to focus on Marine Cloud brightening |
| 14:22 | and also interesting that the uh that the technological challenges of uh of delivering the required uniform spray uh Focus quite right okay thank you is there anything you'd like I gave a short presentation on ice thicketing it was falling the Cambridge scientists doing uh uh experiments on Ice thickening okay absolutely it was it was in the uh the post lunch uh sleepy phase for me so I I I'm sorry I said I should have never mind it's all right we've got it what was interesting was that they absolutely forgot the um |
| 15:08 | Albedo enhancement effect of boiled flakes they they seem not to have appreciated it and they sort of said oh well I said it was curious you didn't want to put this in and they said oh oh yes so much of that comes down to writing doesn't it to writing something that um makes it very clear at the very very early on you know these are the main benefits yeah um yeah Stephen did you want to say anything about the difficulty of making sub Micron sprays um I think it is difficult but I don't think it's impossible and I feel that |
| 15:46 | Cambridge think that it is impossible uh but uh I've got the design of the final equipment is finished uh right the way through from the power generation to the spray release uh I'm working now on the way of detecting the results of spray and the idea is to make something well what we've got to do is to replicate the depth of a cloud which might be several hundred meters in the laboratory and the way I want to do this is to have a thing which I call a spray tunnel which is a a body of air in a tube that |
| 16:32 | I can keep moving around um I want to get extremely dry air by putting it through a deep freeze and then warming it up again and the Deep Freeze gets all the all the water out of it I then want to filter it with a filter that you can get from a clean run and I then want to inject the right amount of the right size of spray from pumping pressure through nozzles in a etched in a silicon wafer and then I want to have it going round and round and round representing it moving through a cloud and maybe for minutes or maybe |
| 17:18 | even an hour to go through the processes of nucleation and drop growth and and I want to watch this with a Malvern spray spray Sizer which gives you the size distribution and the number the concentration of sprays and uh you need quite a big area to do this but the building we just bought has a 30 by 30 open floor area so we can have really quite nice uh Wind Tunnel built into that right so it's a horizontal tube representing the vertical yeah as Stephen mentioned he's just uh purchased a a large 3000 square |
| 18:06 | meter um industrial laboratory Workshop in uh uh in Edinburgh which is uh and so forth even to be in in a position after having been trying to find a suitable location for a couple of years to have finalized purchase it presents a uh a really immense opportunity for uh for seeking co-funding of the uh the operational costs and this is one of the areas uh where we I had some good discussions with with you and Sean at Cambridge about how to how to collaborate with uh with Stephen in Edinburgh and uh was also able to visit |
| 18:52 | uh Steven's existing laboratory and some of the Innovative technology companies that uh that are in that Precinct so that's uh that's an area that uh we'll just uh continue to discuss I I did want to to add that the rephrase the Arctic Foundation was participated in the Cambridge workshop and uh their uh supporting work at delft University in the Netherlands which has uh funding collaboration with the center for climate repair at Cambridge and so uh I I was not really aware of that rephrase the notion uh |
| 19:41 | before and and I think that they would be a very good organization to uh to continue uh to uh discussion with and um uh the only uh uh um concern I had about the Cambridge Workshop like I think that they did a fantastic job in organizing it and enabling it to be hybrid meeting which is always a challenge um uh at the I would have preferred uh a more intensive discussion on uh one ethics and governance um I I think that that would have been uh there's there's a lot of room for uh for debate and uh about uh but that's uh |
| 20:20 | that's just my objective so um okay a more what discussion was that a more uh well intensive discussion I think that like giving like it was nice to give the PhD students uh the opportunity to uh to Showcase their research um but um it was uh yeah like um I I suppose like it's it's just just my perspective you know I'm I'm particularly interested in a strategic policy um right bytes and uh so um yeah just uh finding uh finding opportunities for that conversation okay explore further okay all right thanks |
| 21:09 | Robert uh yeah I I provided a um design to the folks of the CCR for a a large vertical tube uh maybe 30 meters high on which uh um MCB could be tested but they I think it was uh it was too cheap and too backyard for them to to want to touch I also gave them a long time ago the method for detecting the um the spray size uh should be by um waving a sheet of black plastic through any spray waiting or drying out the uh the particles in the link examining them in the microscope to see how big the salt crystals were which you can really |
| 21:59 | easily fill what the size of the droplets were but they also didn't go along with that so I'm feeling a little bit peeved that they won't won't even do very cheap economical experiments to to test some of the things they're trying to test they didn't get a satisfactory answer why then I like I've got no answer at all okay I wonder if Stephen might have a comment on measuring droplet sizes that way uh yes um you have to do it with dry crystals the size uh over a liquid drop just depends on the humidity and the mass of |
| 22:39 | the sultanate and if you go into a lower humidity it'll shrink and if you go into our new energy it'll grow so it's completely pointless to try and measure a liquid drop you have to dry it out and then measure the dry salt you then want to add water vapor and lots of salt crystals grow as water condenses on them and and eventually you get over the the cola Peak and then you slide down the right hands uh curve of the curler Peak and then you can grow into maybe a raindrop eventually right yeah I think it would be helpful to ask |
| 23:21 | Robert Chris for his review of the day [Music] I thought that presentations uh well let me start off with the criticism Sean opened the day by saying he wanted the presentation to be no more than two minutes because he wanted to have lots of discussion and to have a proper Workshop and I think in that respect um the day failed because it was really about the presentations and there wasn't a huge amount of discussion and certainly there weren't people just as Robert has just suggested there weren't |
| 23:59 | people sitting around a table discussing details and coming up with ideas and working out what the next steps might be it was much more a sort of a standard set of presentations which were interesting with a few questions and let's move on so I think in that respect um I I think you know more could have been made of the day that isn't to say that what was done wasn't of value um I would I think that would be unfair but I think that um certainly from where we're coming at which is about what can |
| 24:28 | we do what's what are the next steps I think that more could be more could have been done um to engage in detail and to promote ideas about where we go from here what we should do next and how that might happen um I would endorse uh Robert's comments about the um governance issues I think there's some really um critical points were raised in an afternoon sessions particularly by I haven't got the details in front of you but the US guy Tracy I don't can't remember his his last name Gracie Hester |
| 24:58 | that's right Tracy the lawyer I thought he was a superb speaker he raised a lot of really uh naughty naughty problems that would need to be addressed and which um you know I've I've long thought need to be addressed in parallel with the uh research and engineering and Technology because otherwise what you'll find is that we'll get to a point where the technology has progressed and people say well let's do it and they will say oh oh hold on a minute you haven't got the sort of social license the legal |
| 25:29 | structure so now we've got to go off and do that and meanwhile after all the science and technology technology is going to be sitting you know on a table someday waiting for Clear clearance to move forward so these things really need to be moved forward in parallel and I don't think that that really has been that point has been grasped uh so that that was um you know I think I mean but the main value of the thing for me of the whole the two days I arrived there um sort of early afternoon on Monday uh and stayed until about eight o'clock |
| 25:58 | on Tuesday um the main value of it for me was networking I thought it was just really great to meet people that meet people that are on the screen now that we've met only electronically or virtually but also to meet other people like the guys from RAF the two Dutch guys router van deren who was the guy that was on the platform with the at the end uh we're very very I had a long conversation with him over to the previous evening whilst uh Robert was talking to Hugh and and Sean I was talking to Ruta and he is |
| 26:27 | very closely involved with the club of Rome uh and uh so he's very experienced um on the international stage with promoting a whole range of uh quite uh contentious uh ideas um and you know it was very very refreshing talking to him and learning about what he's been doing and how they've approached it and what the club of Rome has been doing I think we can learn so whether or not we want to buy into their agenda is another question but they've got a lot of experience in in making things happen and getting |
| 27:00 | their their points across so that was that was very valuable um yeah so that was my that was my main take on the day I thought the student presentations were interesting I'd actually seen uh see them both previous day when they actually did the presentations um to their peer groups um uh which was so quite good and I've got to tell you that we had the best of them because a couple of the presentations were absolutely excruciating and I'm glad that they weren't that those words inflicted on us in the dress |
| 27:32 | rehearsal absolutely Robert your your presentation was the was the highlight of the holiday for me your discussion on governance was just wonderful thank you thank you everybody but it wasn't it wasn't heavily prepared I had to say I mean I know you know it would just be shooting my mouth off but you know I to me that whole session was um and I think uh I think I was what actually had happened here let me see a bit of a background Hugh had said to me beforehand did I want to speak on the day and I said not |
| 28:04 | really because my message is so depressing that I don't think anybody's gonna want to listen to it you know I said I'm quite happy to do it if you provide razor blades and buckets so that people can slit their wrists before they leave and not make too much of a mess so so we had a joke about this so then he said well will you join me on the panel at the end just to talk about it and try not to be too gloomy and I said okay fine I'll do that but then as I got involved in discussions with the vuta on |
| 28:33 | the Monday evening I thought that a lot of the things that he that he and I have been talking about would be really good to bring to the wider audience so I suggested to uh Hugh that he should put brutal on the stage um with him and me I didn't realize that he was going to be uh standing there as a question Master shooting questions at this um but you know that's that's the way it worked out so I thought that what he had to say was really quite valuable I thought it was very refreshing about how um essentially if you want to make |
| 29:07 | something happen in the fringes which is where we are you have got to get organized you've got to coalesce with like-minded groups and to do it on large scale because just as you know as individual actors little small cells you're just you'll just be ignored it doesn't matter how compelling your story is you'll never make progress and I thought that that was a very very important lesson to to hear good stuff yeah okay thank you very much okay let's uh let's let's move on because I think we've got lots to talk |
| 29:44 | about here um so because this is related isn't it uh Ron please um strategies for Polar Cooling if you're there wrong is not there is he uh uh he's sorry sorry in a few more minutes I'll be home and I can do this okay that's that's okay yeah okay so let's have Doug then calling the Arctic by Court calling the tropics then let me just say one one is so is anything going to happen about that that that meeting so you said Robert you know certain things didn't happen that would have |
| 30:20 | been good and uh there's a statement of what needs to happen and we often see this in books and this is what needs to happen and then then everybody wonders well is anyone gonna going to make it happen to me that to me was the major shortcoming of the day and it was a kind of isolated event there was no there's no follow-up there was no discussion about where do we go from here what's the next moves and so on you know we came we came together we talked about the issues and we went off in our separate ways with no |
| 30:49 | um with no effort to kind of draw the thrips together and to move forward okay so everyone can I say here's our steering wheel that we've got and I think the reason they got those students to speak is to get them to be more eloquent in front of an audience and because their up-and-coming researchers and they're going to influence the whole academic field we hope so I'm always as everyone knows glass 55 full and I say let's just grab this stuff and run and they may or may not want to have another |
| 31:17 | Workshop sometime but in the meanwhile the fact that you know those people were up there presenting stuff and Doug and I have sort of debriefed because some of it was over my head but some of it I did get etc etc there was a lot of good stuff and let's just leave it for what it is and try and encourage Cambridge in a positive way Rebecca I'm not trying to be critical I just think no you're not I know I'm very positive about it I think lots of good things came out but I'm just making this one observation that there |
| 31:47 | wasn't any real attempt yeah to kind of use it as a platform for the next kind of event you know that's got to be separately promoted or created but we'll have to do that um yeah and um drag them along well you know promote them in as part of that process yeah yep yep okay so let's uh go to the next thing so which is about Brands oh sorry friends you've had your hand up yeah yeah I I only wanted to add something to the discussion the physical things of cloud droplets and so on uh under uh research but uh there seemed to be also |
| 32:33 | chemical uh uh questions and properties for instance that cloud droplets produce hydroxyl radicals and if they do so they would also influence a methane content of their atmosphere I have three uh papers which describe this radical production of small droplets and this would be also a good thing to take for research in a Cambridge right to have an as a research agenda yeah yes yeah but we all produce Shoppers with our for instance Isa yes that too yeah yes okay yeah good yeah good point thanks friends okay uh Doug please |
| 33:35 | calling the traffic so I'm outside on a porch it's a little Breezy so I'm going to put my hand over so you don't hear the wind um so during the workshop maybe Robert or Robert or Sev or somebody else who was there can remember somebody mentioned definitely got to to freeze the Arctic by by uh or cool the Arctic by cooling the tropics and it seemed like there were two or three people that chimed in and said yeah yeah that's what we got to do so I'm just wondering what maybe I heard it wrong |
| 34:06 | you don't want to freeze the Arctic directly you want to cool the tropics and that circulation would get to the Arctic because that was quite a revelation wasn't it quite a revelation I was very surprised by that uh yeah I had a chat with this guy afterwards to discover more but but Steven's got his hand up and he's a scientist yeah let's see what Stephen says well if you think about the heat flows in the globe a lot of it comes in to the equator and the tropics and it moves to where it's cold heat you know travels |
| 34:45 | from hot to cold so all the um the heat that we need to remove can be intercepted anywhere from the equator up to the North Pole or the South Pole uh now the only difference is that it takes a while for the heat to move and the nearer you are to the pole the less time you have to wait to get the the effect of the cooling but you can do it from anywhere and uh the the direction of heat travel is is very well established metaphysics now the there is actually more solar energy going into the high latitudes for a short period |
| 35:27 | maybe only two or three months so you can get a quick fix by doing it then but then you can move the same if you're doing it with Marine Cloud brightening you can do it by moving the vessels from from the high latitude down to the nearer the tropics which is hotter yeah the hotter it is the easier it is to cool yeah you're easier to get there any any heat that's intercepted on route to The Pearl will it be doing a good job for it now the numbers are that if you can do it with Marine Club brightening |
| 36:02 | you need about 100 vessels to do the uh to match the amount of latent heat that you can measure from the rate of ice loss now that calculation assumes that the amount of heat that's getting to the poles through moving water and air hasn't changed but this is a good the first way you start this is to say we know the rate of Iceland we know the latency device and that we know therefore we know how much heat we mustn't get to the to get to the poles and this gives you a really a very small number of sprayer vessels but I |
| 36:36 | certainly would like to be able to do them in other places because we can choose all the balance of side effects but there's there's no uh difficulty about going up as close to the eyes as you want to go and you can leave them there as long as you want there is a possibility that if you can change the size of the aerosol that you're spraying to a much smaller size you can uh this depends on some work that's done in Norway by the Cicero Labs who showed that if you have very small aerosol you can actually |
| 37:16 | clear Cloud by having a large number of non-nucleations they're too small to nuclear properly but if there's enough of them they can still remove quite a lot of water vapor from the from the air and they they suggested that this would clear too warming if you did it low light if you just by simply removing the water vapor to a point where it wasn't going to make a proper Cloud drop now if you can do that in the high latitudes you might be able to clear clouds in the winter and that would certainly allow more |
| 37:50 | long-wave infrared to get out to space I did a short note about this which I think I've circulated to to many of you um it's only one page but uh I it's been rejected by the uh the reputable Publications but it's the way you could make the smaller drops uh is to dilute the sea water with some fresh water that maybe you got from being close to the Greenland melting ice where the water is going to be fresh and you can get a blend of salinities to it aerosols that are a lot smaller what sort of size is it like 10 |
| 38:31 | nanometers is that that sort of size well as I recall it's the eight can mode that the the Norwegians didn't like uh the paper is by Alter sky and Christensen I think it's 2018. and it's called the size the sign of the of the effect um and uh if that's I believe that I don't really understand enough but if it is if it is the true that you can do it in low latitudes to clear the clouds you should be able to do the same process in the higher latitudes in the winter uh the present designer spray vessels |
| 39:12 | now has a surplus of of spray heads and so we could carry different sizes of make different sizes of a spray from the same vessel and that's what I think making making small drops of three and a half percent solution so it would be quite hard but um it's about much easier to dilute it uh in the make a big drop that then gets uh to make a a smaller condensation nucleus okay thank you thank you Stephen anything else on that Robert you've got yeah I've I've just added the the 2013 paper that Stephen just mentioned into |
| 39:51 | the chat um and uh quite quite a useful uh one it is um I I did want to just say um one of the things about uh Doug's question about uh you know focusing on the tropics it's only uh 15 of the planet is north of 45 degrees and uh and that's a bit deceptive when we uh look at uh you know the politics of the the domination of the World by the the northern temperate zone people just assume that it's it's physically bigger than it actually is so uh yeah getting uh getting the scientific balance with |
| 40:29 | the both the South Pole and the Tropics is important thank you yep um Ron you look ready to speak thank you yeah no this is a good segue uh I think um so uh I had uh posted a proposed little presentation uh you know to the actually to I think it's very uh to to knock and all the groups uh unfortunately I was not able to attend uh I got the hours mixed up like three in the morning or something uh for that uh the Sai uh section where I think you know what I was saying was most appropriate but anyway uh the um I think |
| 41:12 | um in this proposal I suggested uh the cooling both poles I think what Robert just said is is quite important that it's got to be symmetric and uh you can't just do the Arctic and not the the Antarctic uh or the you know the regions thereof um also um uh I uh I suggested you say why what what why does it why would it not work if it was asymmetric wrong well they're they're especially regarding there's a paper on on Monsoon disruption I think it's Bala that I referenced in that document uh and a podcast that Andrew |
| 41:52 | did a podcast with him that's where I I picked this up um and uh Bala and a bunch of other you know quite quite well-known uh climate scientists um that uh the there is the the way the the monsoon is disrupted if you get an asymmetric intervention okay basically to prevent that you need to have yeah that's a good enough answer to me okay yeah yeah uh and uh and by the way in that also there's a couple of papers and you know one of them is referencing uh franz's concern and I you know I of course will defer to France as to uh you |
| 42:28 | know how it's a paper by vicioni on on the potential methane accumulation due to SAI so you know I was trying to show that many of the concerns have been addressed I mean I don't know if it's conclusive or not but you know from from those three papers that the third one was on ozone depletion that that was more the the Montreal protocol uh report where they said you know we're looking at uh very substantial Sai in the in the Antarctic because they were concerned about ozone uh I think it was uh two degrees cooling |
| 43:01 | over 20 years or something like that uh you can you could it's a quite short piece actually their report uh and they found you know uh some degree of ozone deterioration uh I think it was uh 20 or something that that brought it back to sort of the 1990s level if it was not offset by you know further uh measures to to prevent uh the the the the harmful uh uh emissions that that you know are are the the major source um if if that was done I think it was in October in the in the southern hemisphere uh on the other hand later on |
| 43:39 | that might cause greater ozone accum buildup in the northern hemisphere so is it you know in in other uh uh I think other other times of the year or uh it was done differently you should look at the report uh but it it was a very mixed message and it did not suggest you know uh a massive uh destruction of the ozone layer even for a very you know large Sai program over the Antarctic you know 20 years of two degrees Cooling so I thought you know again it's all based on modeling so these these papers uh many |
| 44:12 | of them are just only as good as the models about balas the one on the monsoon also is based on modeling uh and I don't know the viscioni paper Daniel vicioni at all on uh on the uh uh on the methane potential methane accumulation I think due to some of the effects that France has been concerned about uh uh I think that may be more of a of a kind of uh you know less of a modeling people although I haven't I haven't looked at it I just I just relied on Doug mcmartin's summary of that uh but anyway so so the the |
| 44:46 | um the issue then became the geopolitics which is kind of what we're talking about here you know so so as you some of you may recall because this all happened no I list uh Michael Hayes retorted well you know uh this is just we got to do the war games here you know Sai is such a potentially destabilizing strategy from a geopolitical perspective that it will never you know the big the big Powers will never agree on this and it's just going to be you know kind of impossible to to implement and so I thought and and again you know what I |
| 45:18 | I've been I it's just you know I I was thinking of the the International Space Station as an analogy and said you know what about you just start baby steps in the polar regions following the actually it's it's McMartin uh you know the Cornell group and viscione and uh and actually um uh uh Mike McMahon uh Mike uh McCracken was an early advocate of this way back uh I think in 2008 a paper for the for the white house uh when he worked there uh and and uh you know you you sort of you start baby steps and you |
| 45:50 | develop trust and confidence and transparency just you know the the International Space Station could be used for military purposes too but all these countries are collaborating it's all of the EU Japan the U.S uh I don't think and Russia is also because uh I don't think China is involved but but you know if you started to do something like that say and and framed it as saving the polar regions you know don't don't frame is geoengineering I'm taking a page from the from the Australian MCB |
| 46:19 | uh effort you know you you stay away from Geo engineering and say look we want to save the polar regions and by the way you know this could benefit the global climate as well but you know we're saving the polar bears we're saving the the the you know the the native way of life in the polar regions you get some buy-in for that and you know it could be uh coincidentally there was an article in the New York Times just came out about the you know the big powers uh uh you know increased effort to to to to dominate the Arctic uh you know the |
| 46:54 | the Canadians sending up troops and the Russians you know trying to you know maneuver to for the North Sea passage and all Northwest Passage and all this stuff uh so so you know the the geopolitics have become somewhat more contentious but you could leave you know if you just did it over the countries that agreed say Canada the US hopefully you know uh uh I don't know you know you you do it initially you could do it as a very regional thing a local thing you know over those countries that agreed to have it done and of course consulted |
| 47:24 | with the native people that live in those areas and say look we want to we want to save your your hunting grounds we want to save the ice for the for the you know the the seals and the polar bears and so forth uh and um and then you know it wouldn't have to in other words I'm I'm just saying you know the situation with Russia is highly contentious right now as everyone knows and they probably would not increase the international uh you know saving the the polar regions uh effort like this but I'm just saying you know it it would be |
| 47:54 | a project and countries could to the extent they had capacity they wanted to be players they wanted to have the international Prestige and so forth they could join the effort just like with the International Space Station the other countries I would think would be quite happy to Be Free Riders if you got good you know if you did uh reduce catastrophic climate climate events uh you know if they did result in the Gulf Stream uh the the you know the the I'm sorry the jet stream somewhat you know Reviving and and you know a sort of re |
| 48:24 | somewhat helping with the global climate situation then then you could say okay well let's let's try it a little bit more and that's where I'm thinking I'm sorry I'm going on for quite long here but uh that's why I'm I'm thinking um this notion that Doug just raised it apparently came to the workshop about cooling the equator which is also by the way where uh David Keith as some of you may remember from the hpac meeting he was very opposed to Polar the polar uh uh you know uh method and and more so |
| 48:52 | that you know that could be an issue and I think you know Steven's uh uh comments I think were were quite useful in that regard because again the the polar idea is is throw up the the aerosol in the in the Summer where the when it's light you know when the sun is hottest and deal with that the Albedo effect in the in the polar regions and then the winter you know it hopefully it falls down by the Fall because that's where the the what is it the Dobson circulation this stuff you know again all based on |
| 49:22 | modeling but it's it's a it's a number of months up there rather than a couple of years as if you do it uh in the uh in the uh you know mid-latitudes um and that and people complained about tournament you know what two years well what if something happens how are you going to stop it it's up there for another two years but that would also avoid that that problem as well so anyway so I think you know so so so Steven's comments that you know the during the winter you need something else uh and perhaps some green Cloud |
| 49:50 | brightening I mean I'm you know as you know I'm you know I'm an H pack person and so I I believe that we will probably need multiple methods uh uh but we you know and that no single uh bullet is gonna is gonna do this but um uh I think you know these are important methods that we should have a plan to to to get up and running so I'll stop there yeah thank you very much there's a big difference between the lifetime of the aerosol that you use for marine Cloud brightening and the one that you use for stress for sulfur and |
| 50:24 | the very short life of marine Cloud writing is an advantage here because if anything does go wrong you can click one Mouse click and then you stop spraying immediately and uh or everything that you've done is wiped out at the next rain shower or snow snowstorm so the the difficulties about side effects and anxiety so much much reduced because of the short life it's it's a big attraction uh I I the people who are doing stress sulfur at the moment believe particularly John listen believes that if you stop uh in the |
| 51:00 | Autumn everything will have gone by the sort of uh mid midwinter I I think that you judging by the time it took chernoville to to spread around the whole of the northern hemisphere you you really everything that you do will go everywhere in the same hemisphere quite quickly and if you think about the the Brewer Dobson compared with the speed of the of the jet stream you don't really know what's going to happen for the next year or so if you're doing strasbek sulfur yeah it doesn't just sort of go up like that it goes |
| 51:42 | around what a popular view Among The Advocates of strasbourx supper but you won't know how long it's going to be until you've done it what do you think about if they if they wanted to do it Stephen and then they were side effects um I mean just I'm just just thinking allowed about then Marine Cloud brightening then going to the right places to ameliorate any sort of adverse effects well Marine Cloud brightening you have a lot of control if you provided you can forecast the direction of the wind relative to |
| 52:15 | Where You released the stuff and the time it takes to the next rain show you need if you need those if you understand those you've got a really very good control of where you want to go it's like having steering on a vehicle rather than locking the steering wheel well you generally do don't you you have meteorological uh you know forecasts and they are getting really very good now and they can be made better if you have lots of satellite data which they're increasing all the time and also if you |
| 52:49 | can run climate models very much more quickly so you can try some four or five different schemes and see which one gives you the one you want and uh if we can get these this new computer technology with the uh the much higher speeds and much more powerful because then we'll have a lot more confidence in them what will happen so it seems to me then that it doesn't have to be either or as Ron just said it could be you know more than one technology okay thank you uh Robert please I said there's a couple of things |
| 53:24 | following up from Ron the uh the charismatic Foreigner uh does Ron mentioned in the Arctic uh percent are really important um way of uh engaging with the broader public and uh on uh on the need to uh to rephrase the Arctic but the thing that that really perturbs me at the moment is the fatalism that we see in the mainstream climate movement with people saying uh 1. |
| 53:54 | 5 is gone there's nothing that can be done to uh to prevent um the uh the Arctic melting that there's nothing that can be done to stop uh World temperature rising above 1.5 degrees when it's very clear that you know re-brightening Technologies can achieve that and so it's it's just really strange like they just say well we rule all of that out and it's it's a really serious ethical problem yeah yeah thank you Robert yep um yes we've been talking about you here okay but um uh who is next oh uh Ron byman please |
| 54:32 | oh I I think oh thank you anyway I I just had a quick comment I know John John is in the queue as well oh and I'm sorry I'm up he went away and came back you're going yeah okay yeah so uh one other point is is that you know the Big Bang versus the gradual approach and that that's quite important because I think a lot of people talking about Sai they conceive of it as you know we do research for 10 years like David people do research for 10 years and then you know if we have to or when we're when |
| 55:02 | we're the research tells us we're good with it then we proceed with Sai which may take another 10 years to actually get up and running so you know it's it's it's this kind of long term and and of course I absolutely agree with I I think it was uh uh Clive or or Robert or I don't know who was who was saying this you know that it you know you can you can do two things at once you can test out and part of the problem here is I think the atmospheric processes are so are so complex that you really never my |
| 55:29 | impression is you're never really confident until you actually test in C2 you know baby test to see what's going to happen I mean some of the effects that Stephen was talking about you know you're not gonna necessarily know in a lab or with climate models how long the stuff is going to stay up or you know what's going to happen so it makes all the sense I think to start actually piloting the actual program baby steps before you jump into the Big Bang so that was just you know my my comment there yeah thank you thank you Ron uh |
| 55:59 | John please yeah surely the geopolitics says a less contentious testing in the Antarctic in the Arctic I mean the Arctic is more critical in terms of melding at the moment of course but but there is a lot of international collaboration in the Antarctic a lot of countries working together down there I mean Robert and I have been saying this for some time I mean I'm thinking MCB not not Sai so much but the testing in the sub notion in the Antarctic is surely an easier entry point you know to get started than |
| 56:29 | than in the ACT we haven't got Russia involved so much I mean it'd be an easier place to work I mean Stephen I've talked about doing tests of Southern Tasmania in the Clean Air down there from Mass Taco Island I mean it's it's not in the in the heat of of all the geopolitics in in the Arctic so I mean it's it's just a testing location and then move to the Arctic after that yeah good point John we'll get it we'll do it all the testing in Australia from Australia yeah okay thank you Australia |
| 57:00 | they should do it yeah uh yeah Robert please Robert Chris yeah it's just interesting that uh this afternoon uh this very afternoon in the houses of Parliament there was a subcommittee which let me just check was called uh very very boringly it was called the uh uh the uh environmental audit subcommittee on Polar research and on what research was that um sorry thank you primary it was mostly about the Arctic but there was a bit about the Antarctic I didn't listen to audit it was about four hours altogether but I I |
| 57:35 | was in and out of it and these are it was mostly uh parliamentarian members of parliament asking a bunch of scientists uh who are working who are actively working uh in uh mostly in the Arctic uh uh and around Arctic issues um about UK research and so and so forth and what was interesting there were two things that were interesting to me one when these politicians because they tend to ask very short all right questions you know like what's the biggest what's your one biggest problem in the Arctic or what's the one thing |
| 58:08 | you would do but those sort of questions the scientists almost without exception the thing that needed to be done was more research yeah no one mentioned any kind of freezing any kind of Albedo management nothing um there was one very articulate lady A lady called Jane turton I think she was she sounded English but she's associated with the Nordic University and she had a kind of English name uh very very eloquent speaker and she was very very Punchy very but very much the point but when it came to what we have to do |
| 58:53 | it was we've known all these years what to do and it's all about reducing emissions that was it yeah you know that was it and these people you know these are people that know the issues but no question at all no no even not even a whiff either from the scientists or questions from the parliamentarians in the segments that I watched that I didn't see the whole thing and I'm going to go and sort of poke around a little bit a bit more on another occasion but you know what it told me was there is a mountain to climb here |
| 59:26 | because this is a committee this is a committee that's been actually focused on the Arctic you know on the polar regions no these are politicians that are actively thinking about it they're aware of the issues or the problems but you know it's melting you know um maybe we should go and see our MPS and tell them yeah absolutely well I think you know somebody else was I think it was a you also talking about this uh and she was I think it was another an activist it wasn't greater cernberg it was somebody else of that same ill and she |
| 1:00:00 | was saying look you know um the most important thing that you can do and actually she was talking to young people I think this girl will say teaching English an 18 year old English girl that was kind of modeling herself on the Greta model and she was saying that the most important thing that people can do apart from the activism but ahead of that is vote you're one big powerful tool is your vote and you should exercise it wisely and get your friends to exercise it wisely and now that was I thought a very powerful |
| 1:00:34 | comment coming from a quite Savvy 18 year old that was kind of concerned about these issues there was a there was a meeting of that committee about 10 years ago and Peter Wadhams and I both gave evidence to it but it didn't have much effect and um but it should all be enhancerred uh you can you can download it from there yeah thank you Peter uh Stephen uh Hugh and then we'll move on all I wanted to say was apologies for joining the meeting late uh it's my son's birthday and we've just been out |
| 1:01:12 | for dinner um and uh just to say that I thought we had a great meeting on uh Tuesday last week and no doubt you've already spoken about that yeah I'm sorry I'm a bit late thanks for hosting that uh Workshop um um so if you see the recording you'll see what was what was said about it uh and it's nice to see you okay let's move on then um so uh it's Rebecca uh Rebecca please on um uh the table of Technologies could you put that up through time ah um I'm gonna need to um okay I'm gonna go and find it so you're gonna |
| 1:01:53 | see my oh here we are um list of possible Technologies here we go I'm all organized you see yes just while Clive's doing that um thank you very much very much you the last item there is from about her when he said we need to be I've popped that on there if we have time so there'll be another discussion of good things that came from Cambridge at the end if we have time so um could you try maybe scroll up a tiny little bit so people can see the heading um client anyway that's good there you go yeah |
| 1:02:28 | yeah so um this table is is the beginning of tabulating or keeping in one place that the Technologies or the methods that we have I should say that are almost ready for a funder um and across the top are some assessment criteria and the whole thing is just completely tentative at the moment so anyone can change anything but it came about because as you can see there um a little small group of us have been supporting Stephen with the Marine Cloud brightening his ideas and tomorrow morning another little group of us he is |
| 1:03:09 | having a meeting with Brian about some ideas that he has about MCB on the Barrier Reef um and then the third one is um funds and Clive's paper that they're writing so I popped the title of that one in there because that's going to become a funding proposal pretty soon and then where I just stopped after this amount of work but Sev had a discussion at the last hpac meeting about his ideas and asked for help and also Ron I know that you I don't know whether you're going to be the guy that who leads the team or |
| 1:03:43 | whatever but the the ideas about Sai to save the Arctic is another idea that could or should be written up so um what I'd like to say about the table is that part of the reason is to understand what are all the proposals that we have and how do they relate to each other and I have had I I have to say it was a complete pleasure and joy to read Clyde's paper or Clive and friends I should say and find out there how what they're proposing overlaps with the MCB which I know about from reading and you know |
| 1:04:18 | working on Steven's one so it needs to be like a jigsaw um when we know how they fit together they can be different they can be parallel but we at least need to not be saying things that are totally opposite to each other or if we do I mean I will come back to that how do they relate um Brian I wasn't meaning to assume anything there at all about the Stevens MCB I didn't know whether you did or didn't say that the climate Foundation could be the sponsor for that one but I just the idea is to have an organization |
| 1:04:51 | that can be the sponsor and um the other thing is that um who how will this little process be managed at the moment I've got it on a spreadsheet and I am no good at Google Documents so if anyone is good at that they can put it on there and share it round but for example as I said Sev asked for help at the last meeting and people can offer that to him um Plus Clive I this is a bit of details I can do offline with you but in the last Nook meeting in your item on um so you mentioned a method of fixing nitrogen using methane and you also |
| 1:05:34 | mentioned the name of the method in the company or organization that's developing it so that is a bit of detail that we don't have to discuss now but the purpose is to keep tabs on what everything is where is it up to and who are the point people or the team managing it so that um we actually have got some things that are ready to give to funders and just to cap off my short chat about this um apart from I'm very practical and so are the others that I'm working with Doug and Robbie and whoever else it's so far |
| 1:06:10 | I've shown it to Ron and herb as well as Doug and Robbie but part of the reason is so that we can actually say confidently in public we need to slow climate change I'm using words there from um the guy from Ocean Visions Brad he was he was talking about messaging and anyway but there are actually things we can do and we can start our messaging about that but more importantly we have got things that are being worked up that can be given to a funder so I'll stop talking there and anyone can say what |
| 1:06:48 | they think of it but I I can't manage this damn thing on my own it needs to be like if sev's ideas he needs to write them up and run I don't know whether you've got the energy to write up the Sai one but it's not about me doing everything it's just a table to thanks you what would you like to say hmm yeah you've got your hand up here oh yeah oh yeah I mean this is absolutely fabulous and really important um I've been to meetings since you know the spice project 10 12 years ago and so |
| 1:07:23 | on we are up against some pretty powerful um people uh um who um just believe that they know all the answers and people who wrote papers 10 12 14 years ago uh completely dismitting Marine Club brightening um they just have they continue to have powerful voices and it's very annoying there was this um uh uh Gordon conference last summer in May where Jim Hayward uh got up to give a presentation on what was that Stratosphere aerosol's work and Marine Cloud brightening doesn't work and I mean who is he he wrote a paper |
| 1:08:17 | showing that he did well that's not what he said in the audience this is the thing and he he's he gets up and ah it's very it's frustrating so I think what I would be very interested in is whether on this very helpful spreadsheet whether we could get the opinions of people like uh Jim Jim Hayward um McMartin is saying oh look there's no point uh because anyway it's the likes of Jim Hayward Doug mcmurton that need to buy into this and whatever we say in our little group here I think without the |
| 1:09:06 | I think they are the heavyweights without their buy-in to this spreadsheet we might not get very far that's all I want to say okay the Jones keyword and voucher paper so that you could use three percent of the the oceans to get rid of about half the warming problems yeah I'm not saying they're not saying that but they need to buy into this spreadsheet yeah I think we we don't we need we don't have any political paths I wanted to get onto this so we can actually have a presence you know and a |
| 1:09:37 | strategy and people working on it yeah Rebecca okay so um what I think about what Hugh just said is that the devil is in is as well as in the again I feel sort of privileged I mean I've been spending a lot of hours lately on this work but I have read the detail of um Steven's work and helped to write it up with Robbie and um done and I've also read the detail of your work crime and what we need to do is get the papers so they are absolutely spotless in terms of what we think about climate cause and |
| 1:10:13 | effect this is the sort of thing that Brian usually raises in meetings so that they make sense to us and they are entirely readable and internally consistent within each paper and also across the different papers if one of us is saying one thing like I know that we're not we're different people in a group but you know we need to have the same overall idea of how MCB works for example or cloud microphysics or whatever it is so there's a bit more to write things up and then actually if you I agree with you totally and utterly and |
| 1:10:45 | the way that we've written up the MCB paper is to put it inside the work of the MCB project over in Washington so that they can comment on it and they can like whether they're the right ones but obviously yourselves as well but it's not just an idea that's coming out of Steven's thought he is the ideas person but it has to reference the literature and it has to be solid and then we need to get it peer reviewed that's all part of what we are already working on in detail in the MCB one so again I I agree |
| 1:11:17 | with what you're saying but we just have to be ready but fundamental stage we have to make sure that we know what we're talking about and they either are or are not consistent and we can explain why even if the ISD is a different we can explain why they are different and what we are hoping to test that's great thank you um Rebecca yeah quite a big project quite a lot of work but um but that's what needs to be done I'd rather agree with that thank you um okay so is anybody is anybody any good at Google Documents or who else |
| 1:11:49 | wants to help socialize this thing because I can't do it I'm no good on you know if we have one spreadsheet it's going to get out of date what we've got um is people offering to make websites and and have a whole sort of strategy and and have um people doing doing things not even sure if it might be full-time so well that it's a good question that sort of I don't want to um uh cancel your question Rebecca does yeah so Sev are you offering you've raised your hand are you offering about eight |
| 1:12:22 | years ago I did a very large colorful spreadsheet doing very close to what Rebecca's uh saying I'll send that to Rebecca and she see what she thinks about it and uh we can then maybe made our size that to bring it up today then to put in the the various uh methods okay all right thank you all right um and so when I just said I've got I've got an increasing number of people here in Cambridge that could help with that so Rebecca can you uh get in touch with me please beautiful and what I'll do is |
| 1:12:57 | um because the emphasis of this thing is investment proposal ready someone needs to put their hand up to work it up so what I'll do is before I send it to you I'll put red green and orange in with my little tiny bit of knowledge on where things are up to and if someone can manage a Google group and be a bit of a Secretariat oh anyway I'll chat with you Hugh thank you yeah great wonderful thank you very much okay so next we have uh uh so Anton I I don't know if you want to speak together Anton and Bruce but |
| 1:13:30 | anyway so let's start with Anton please uh can you hire me yep and uh actually do you mind just uh giving a very brief introduction because I think I can't remember if we've seen you on Noah before yeah I was on a number of no out calls uh two years ago okay just remind us very briefly very briefly yeah so I'm a recovering mechanical engineer and systems engineer and I've been studying oceanography and climate science for 15 years now and I had a company for about five years that was was trying to do a range of |
| 1:14:04 | things before there was a lot of funding and um anyway uh I went to Meridian came back now I'm uh starting something new I've started a month ago so I want to I want to tell a story um about five years ago I was involved in a debate with some climate scientists and it was a just an odd little discussion about what kind of problem climate change is and half of them were saying it's a science problem the other half was saying it's an engineering problem and I as The Village Idiot chimed in saying you're all wrong it's a finance |
| 1:14:41 | problem and I felt pretty clever at the time and I felt like I won that little debate and walked away with my blue metal ribbon and and um and I now know today I was wrong so climate change from a first principle standpoint and analyzing as a system is actually a mindset problem so um so I'm realizing this you know all the things that Humanity must do to effectively combat climate change and to reverse it I see it as six activities categories of activities and I'm just going to go through you all know these like I'm not |
| 1:15:15 | telling you anything new but his personal Behavior changes policy change it's conservation it's decarbonization it's uh greenhouse gas removal and conversion and then because we're not doing any of those in an effective timeline we're going to get punched in the face and so there's a sixth category that's the mitigations and adaptations and that's what Kool-Aid Arctic is about how do you put out wildfires how do you prevent wildfires more effectively how do you do a sea level rise how do you |
| 1:15:42 | desalinate and move water fresh water to dehydrated places um how do you deal with you know biodiversity loss all these things are sort of catchable in the sixth one but if you think about those and how effective we are in any of those or all of them it comes down to the seventh thing and that is education right now there's maybe single digits of percentages in our society that truly understand what climate change is and the potential ramifications of us not dealing with it in a timely fashion so to me the hardest problem in all of |
| 1:16:15 | this to getting past this early stage and into adoption and inertia is education and changing the mindset so that's what I'm setting up to do and I've the first four people I recruited to this new little consulting company I made they're all markcom people marketing and Communications people um and so in thinking about noack what I wanted to offer reply was Hey look the more organized you can get the more you can stand up like a quality website the more you can coalesce and simplify and use what's known as the public |
| 1:16:51 | swimming pool method of communication you know the more reach you're gonna have um there's the moment you start spinning in like technical issues scientific issues engineering issues in the early stages of getting people to understand what you're doing the more you're going to lose people and so the public swimming pool methodology is just and there's a reason why public swimming pools have the change rooms right at the beginning of the shallow end of the pool so everybody can get in the shallow end |
| 1:17:16 | but there's better swimmers the deeper thinkers the scientists the engineers that want to dive deeper they can go out to the deeper levels so there's some of this that I want to be able to offer you guys um and help set up a website and kind of call us some best practices and some narrative alignment around how you communicate what you communicate when you communicate to who you might we can get into sort of a sub meeting around you know I see you guys having five constituents you need to Target and you |
| 1:17:45 | know in your Communications your your documents and then there's the aggregate of the five which is a whole nother animal threading that needle is a little trickier and what can be done um so anyway that's what I'm setting up to bother you all with thank you very much Anton uh yeah we need to be bothered in that kind of way uh yeah and uh when I showed my document to uh my friend is an editor just this weekend and he's the first thing he said is who's your target audience and I didn't didn't really know the |
| 1:18:18 | answers were lots of people maybe the activist scientific Community um so I said well not the general public then or not not funding people not not policy makers so you know uh I'm you know a beginner at this stuff and so I think marketing communication people are going to uh you know I'm not saying no one here is a marketing communication person we're all concerned people but that's very much appreciated Anton and so I look forward to uh doing you know working as best I can with you and whoever else |
| 1:18:51 | comes along and Bruce on the same day I think it might have been or the very next day Bruce Parker offered to make a website for me as well for us for us for Nowak um or you know whoever um so we have some hands up so let's do that uh and then and then see uh if Bruce wants to say something thank you very much um Anton so this is part of what you've just said Ron please thank you thank you uh Anton I think I think it's a it's a very good point um but we of course uh as as you as you as you may know you know we're we I |
| 1:19:27 | think we we feel a sense of urgency of a you know if if we can do anything to put a Band-Aid on why we're trying to get you know the the broader public engaged and and working on the really serious long-term fundamental problems uh that have caused this situation but but uh to your point directly uh we're having a meeting I I don't want to you know I mean I'm from the Healthy Planet Action Coalition I mean all these groups are kind of you know overlapping so you know we're all kind of you know in in a sense |
| 1:19:59 | all all together uh very much together on on most of this um but we're having a meeting on Thursday general meeting Thursday three three p.m uh central time uh that is actually being led by a group of of sort of uh organized organizing and communication experts um uh that is actually we're trying to float I think very much the strategy that you're you're talking about you know uh uh get a an actual campaign going to uh to reach out to the broader public on many of these issues so uh anyone who's you know I I just wanted to |
| 1:20:36 | throw that out there it's it would be June June 15th uh 3 P.M Central Time the the hpac general meeting okay thank you Ron uh Hugh well I couldn't resist and um your public swimming pool analogy um I've used that in a different context you might like this um the first thing you've got to do in a public swimming pool is to stop people from pissing in the pool which is why you have the toilets at the entrance to the pool um but if if you fail to stop people from pissing in the pool then you put chlorine in the pool |
| 1:21:14 | but chlorine of course was used to kill the troops in the trenches in World War One so somehow we've managed to persuade people that this deadly substance chlorine has a positive benefit so I kind of see this as a parallel to climate change we've got to stop people in the piss from pissing in the pool but at the same time geoengineering Maybe there are some technology Technologies which might on the face of it look dangerous but in fact are extremely beneficial so I think your public pool analogy goes a long way |
| 1:21:50 | thank you okay um right anything to add to Anton no okay thanks so uh Bruce are you there Bruce I'm here yeah just um after getting your email back about Anton being interested he and I are going to collaborate and start doing some work I've developed a number of websites um so he was so I guess the idea is to try to figure out what sort of things y'all want on the website part of your talk and it's probably not just one target audience you probably have two one of them may be the group as a whole |
| 1:22:25 | how do you help help organize your own group how do you put up things you have videos so your notes from the different meetings videos from different meetings who you're collaborating with who are the people what about again the take the table that Rebecca was working on how do you extend that out and have have Papers written into the different topics that are included there so you people got a reference but you want to find out what Marine Cloud writing is well you go to your website and you can read about it |
| 1:22:49 | you want to find out what and to me what I'm hoping to get out of this is why do you need Marine Cloud brightening I mean the public is out there the climate change is happening what is it that makes your Geo engineering green con brightening so important to get done right away how do you educate people that you need that to happen and that's what I'd like particularly like to work on is what how do you present that story how do you present the background so the people could say oh yeah we really need |
| 1:23:16 | to do this thing uh but anyway the whole idea is y'all to think about what you might like to see in a website what information you'd like to have up there where you can contribute who can help out who can write stuff up and and who could organize it I can help get it organized and if we can use a platform like uh Anton recommended Squarespace if that works fine if it doesn't work fine I write HTML I can write web pages like the database and the back ends uh if you want to have an art have things where |
| 1:23:42 | you submit the latest news latest articles and things on on climate change you want to or or do you engineering you want to have a place where you could look to that we could do anything a lot of things you want how much do you all want to work how much you want to contribute what do you want to see things to think about Anton and I will do some collaboration this week and then get back to you here where we go from here okay thank you very much uh my uh first thing that brings to mind is I think we want something that's |
| 1:24:09 | um reasonably standard and easy to update if anything happens to you Bruce for example you know is it is it going to be maintainable by you know other uh people that don't have to be experts um but I'd say that one thing but but um the other thing is what sort of nagging thought is there's a lot of us um we're a little bit diverse we're all over the world well you know English speaking world usually when you know something like this has to be coordinated and so what's nagging in my mind is you know someone |
| 1:24:42 | has to lead the process that has to be a recognized person and then you get get all these problems well I disagree with the leader and I don't like the way they're doing things but that I don't know if there needs to be a voting mechanism so I'm it's just this is knacking I'm not saying this needs to happen it seems to be working quite quite well so far perhaps if marketing Community mark on people pose questions like the one you've just posed uh Bruce you know why do we need Marine Cloud |
| 1:25:09 | brightening as soon as you said that I know what I'd say about that you know and many of us have been saying some of the same things you know just look to see how the energy transition is going to Renewables and uh um I just mentioned at the beginning uh backlab smells book uh how the world really works uh there's a lot of it's about energy so yeah so answering answering this for people to say well why do you need this uh that that would work for me work for me personally Anton if you're you're people uh send me |
| 1:25:42 | questions and say and then they'll say well that doesn't really explain it but we've got all these objections um how are you going to answer that it needs to be you know hardcore um uh hardcore you know realistic Frank we haven't got time to mess about basically uh it needs to be workable so um yeah any any other comments at all anything at all I mean up to now I mean no I can I don't have any plan to change it is is anything we you know the way it works people suggest something and we discuss |
| 1:26:14 | and then we see where it goes from there and other groups might not want not want to organize themselves the same way as this other groups might might be hierarchical and say look we're gonna make something happen we're not just a ideas group we know we know the ideas we're going to make something happen anyway any other comments I mean that's just some summarized the whole thing there well said Clive and I'm putting up some more detail on the on the HVAC thing but yeah I think I think that's you know |
| 1:26:46 | it's always the problem is that uh we need people who who can do this can organize can invest time in this uh and uh and you know we got to get around that that uh that problem and uh you know I think we're all kind of working on that in different ways and hopefully we can all come together right we all should speak with one voice as as Rebecca said yeah uh and obviously many of you have been putting have been putting yourself sword Rebecca I was able to ask can you look at this and she just said yep and uh did the work you |
| 1:27:17 | know um what was the other thing oh when you said about uh a mindset problem uh and so I was thinking seeing much the same thing towards the end of that book from sort of in my mind now this book about how the world really works he was talking about the pandemic so I can easily imagine a group this sort of size perhaps this diverse talking a couple of years before the pandemic and saying you know we really don't have the the equipment and all the things in place you know if there's going to be a pandemic you know we don't have the the |
| 1:27:52 | gloves and the gowns and and the oxygen you know what if it was going to be much worse than the SARS you know as it was and then getting absolutely nowhere and when the pandemic came you had these ridiculous you know complete you know completely inadequate ability to respond the equipment simply wasn't there because they hadn't invested it because there was there was no demand for it political politically I can quite imagine the same you know the same thing and so it does need it it needs to be coordinated it needs to we |
| 1:28:23 | need to punch above our weight basically yes um okay we've got five minutes left uh so what else uh there's nothing else to say thank you for that Ron um and thank you both uh Anton and Bruce that really feels like moving things forward to the next step in another level if we can continue with this uh that's very much appreciated I look forward to working with both of you um okay so Rebecca uh singing from one hymn sheet in the last five minutes you're muted Rebecca whoopsie sorry what I suggest is that we |
| 1:29:04 | get started on this today and everyone can contain and bring thoughts for the next meeting um we've had a few discussions lately in the group about metaphors and what whether we do or don't understand them so I'm going to start off with the hymn sheet which is um one of my many bits of background is Welsh and we all know that the Welch love to sing and we love to sing in harmony so that is the metaphor of singing from one hymn sheet is that you know the tune and you are singing and if somebody is off key who cares but it |
| 1:29:35 | sounds lovely because everyone knows what part they're singing or they even know how to ad-lib Etc um the reason I've raised this is because it's the last session in the Cambridge Workshop by vowter Van deren I hope I've said his name correctly who was involved in the early days if um with socializing the message of the club of Rome and what he said quite clearly and who or anyone else can say if I've got the key message correct but what I heard him say was we and he please putting us himself in |
| 1:30:10 | our camp that we need to call the planet we cannot be seen to argue or else we lose credibility and we put people off and so then he said we have to we have to be like Greenpeace was in the early days and have one message and one set of visuals and that kind of thing so that we grab everyone's attention so that was my take out from that um the next thing I've got here is what might the key messages be and there's you know a lot of discussion on this in the all the different groups all the time but for example |
| 1:30:47 | what is the problem what do we need to say about climate science and what do we not need to say we know it's hot what else do we need to say other than that I'm just being a bit facetious but we need you know we need to have something that speaks to people who are scientifically minded but perhaps it doesn't matter about equilibrium warming for example what are the solutions well we're already starting on that we've got a lot of ideas and you know we're now going to think with Hughes help Roll Along and |
| 1:31:15 | get very practical about it and my last um thing here is about language and in one of the um hpap meetings Brad ack from Ocean Vision spoke and he spoke about this strategy and he said we're very careful with our language we like to say slowing the warming in the Arctic for example so that it's not you know they've got their messages now it doesn't really matter um this is what we do in government all the time you write up your speaking notes for your minister and then the minister knows what he has to say and |
| 1:31:48 | um you know I've supported the treasurer for 20 years in New South Wales but he can say something different if he wants but at least he knows what is his main point and what is he trying to achieve and what language is he using that relates to what the cabinet is thinking all the different views in the cabinet and also what the public is thinking so again it really doesn't matter if someone says um cool the climate instead of slow the climbing in the climate suppose a warming in the climate but it does |
| 1:32:18 | matter if we have Discord and if we're not on the same page so that's my summary of that last session in Cambridge and since we have one minute um you know people can work out what to say to what to do next time okay thank you very much Rebecca Sev yeah uh regarding your uh pandemic uh thing the United States actually did have a plan and a group running it Trump canceled it three years before the pandemic hit so they they didn't have any of the materials or or or things there so even the best laid plans can |
| 1:32:57 | get messed up by an idiot careful um but yeah um yeah so we could uh come up with a great plan that's uh all funded and then canceled yeah uh hadn't quite thought of that but yeah okay fair enough yeah um all right so I've nothing to nothing else to add anything else for anybody to to add other than just thank you Rebecca for that last part and uh and for everybody for your uh contributions anything else at all I just want to say Rebecca I do think you did you did get that right so um uh that is what verteb was saying and |
| 1:33:40 | you're right about you know the beauty of the world's choirs but it's still it needs somebody to tell to decide what song they're going to sing and once you've decided what song you're going to sing then you can sing it beautifully together but but we've got to make the decision of what song to sing well do you know what you at the risk of going one minute over time Ron is a folk musician and when you go to a jam session they rotate around and they just pick the song and it sort of by osmosis |
| 1:34:08 | but it's still we're all singing Irish and we know what we're singing or whatever it might be I found out that Ron is a Jammer because I play the cello at the various levels and so on and so forth and anyway um I love what you said here and now I don't know whether ROM's got time to say something if anyone needs to leave then goodbye thank you very much speak and then we'll be done oh thank you Rebecca I'm I'm not on that note um uh I I think you know getting feedback here but we need uh our |
| 1:34:43 | general message I mean one of the you know having all these methods I don't think is is is that much of a problem if we generalize the message you know at a higher level that we need we need urgent cooling right now in whatever way possible we need to evaluate the best way and so forth we can we can have the experts get together and try and figure out the best method but you know if we're all on board just with that General message that we're in a crisis and we need to cool as soon as possible right now in order to do the long run |
| 1:35:13 | you know I talk about you know getting through Sinai to get to the promised land uh then then that that's a very general message I think that we can we can lead with thank you okay thanks everyone do you know my sister Rosie hunt she's a cellist uh we'll have to continue this conversation my teacher is Susan Blake and she's pretty amazing and um what you know I'd love to chat about it Hugh I'll tell you what I'll leave the two of you chatting into each other um I've got to get back to my voice |
| 1:35:49 | see you zero bye bye bye here bye everybody foreign |