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| 00:09 | ah John you're muted currently John oh hi Seth hi guys hi friends and Brew hey bro and John Antonio The Usual Suspects yeah pretty soon it's always good to see everybody um well it's uh we're on the hour good morning good evening everybody hi hi for some reason I I wasn't allowed to be too unmute mute myself but now I |
| 01:18 | can well I didn't don't blame me I haven't done anything it was it said it was your fault it said blame Clive did it yes oh dear well it doesn't want to take responsibility itself does it yeah uh and yeah I'm good to just uh nip away for a moment and pluck myself in and get myself comfortable okay John yeah right out let's get going um and what do we want to talk about today I know Sev has hi hi Brian greetings welcome Brian in the morning early in the morning and John John uh McDonald's yeah right yes wife yeah |
| 02:07 | well I know Sev wants to uh talk about the document that uh he circulated about um implications that's a pretty complete agenda I reckon uh it is rather isn't it yeah yeah uh so you want to start with someone else then first uh monopolize things not well there's there's also John wants to talk about his paper that might be enough just those two things might be quite long um but uh but I'm not saying that we don't want to hear any more uh but what other ideas if there if there are other things that anybody wants to mention |
| 02:46 | sometimes we have some things that get discussed briefly at the end as well I'll perhaps briefly mention my visit to cop27. oh yes please yeah not that startling really but uh nevertheless interesting I think definitely yeah perhaps what was that Brian sorry it might be helpful to start with that maybe start with that okay yeah all right then yeah okay and then let's just put John in uh paper okay anything else from anyone hi David Uncle Wallace hello early in the morning for you well eight o'clock oh no it's is it no it's |
| 03:33 | midday for you it's noon yeah according my watch I've been up for uh 10 hours so uh I guess it's late later in the day okay all right um anything else then for anyone all right so let's hear from you then Chris please um wow I was there for about five days um it was I suppose it was similar to what I might have guessed not having been to one before but it was a bit of a mad house frankly there was stuff going on all over the shop there was hundreds of um so-called Pavilions or sort of stalls in all in a number of different |
| 04:17 | buildings although these buildings were temporary structures all of them being a highly air-conditioned after Sawmill Shake God knows how much carbon was being done to provide all that air conditioning a hell of a lot I imagine um there was on the some of the there were some websites sort of summarizing all the programs and things in some areas there was an awful lot of stuff about carbon removal compared to previously apparently um some of that about the ocean um there was also a lot of stuff covering the ocean in various aspects a |
| 04:52 | lot more than previously it's sort of ramped up in order of magnitude since Glasgow pretty much um and it's probably going to increase again because the ocean seems to have got a lot more attention now from different sort of angles certainly um as part of the climate sort of system that needs to be considered in all respects um so that was uh interesting there was talks that I actually went to and frankly you could only touch on some of them because they're just so many all over the place some of them running |
| 05:23 | simultaneously um but the ones I focused on were the most of the ocean ones that sort of interest to me and um I think the general message from a lot of people was there was certainly a big concern about the ocean because of climate change and that some of the oceans carbon removal techniques will actually benefit the ocean as well as the climate which was some people hadn't particularly thought about how it got the impression um there didn't seem to be much consideration of cooling techniques at all it still seems to be |
| 06:01 | not out there in sort of a big way but talking to individual people um there is certainly some people who are perhaps getting to the point where they can see that Mitigation Of emissions and CDR techniques are not going to deal with the problem in time I think that's probably becoming more common amongst individuals although it's not a sort of institutional message yet um I didn't get a chance to speak to any of these sort of Island state folks because most of the one most of those countries have small delegations and they're |
| 06:41 | nearly all tied up in the negotiations anyway and you couldn't get into the negotiations because that's a high security area and you couldn't get in there um it did occur to me that if we want to raise the cooling issue with them the thing to do is to contact the body called The Association of small island States which is a body that brings them all together for negotiating on all sorts of issues not just climate but there are certainly several States who apparently the negotiations had made a lot of noise about the fact you know |
| 07:12 | they're going to go underwater pretty damn soon if something doesn't happen I think when you are too in Kiribati we're probably all curabashed as they call it is probably the two most prominent examples of I think Maldives would also fall in that category as well um and there's the and there's several others who have at least some of their territory like that places like Fiji and Tonga and you know any Pacific Islands you name almost or nearly all of the coral atolls are very low lying by |
| 07:39 | definition that's how they're how they're built um uh I don't think I've found anything completely surprising or new um but there was quite a lot of emphasis on social sciences came out in a number of areas so some of the people looking at um the social angles of climate sort of techniques and climate issues generally probably a lot more of that I guess than there would have been previously um and quite so widespread well the there was an ocean Pavilion that's one I was particularly involved with and that |
| 08:19 | was sponsored by about 20 different Marine institutions around the world so they all got together to that's the first time they've had one of these apparently at uh uh and I think they all felt it something that was worth doing they had a very full program plenty of people went along there the big bug bear in the whole place though for all of the talks the background noise was horrendous because none of these Pavilions were totally closed off and if another Pavilion was having a Rowdy sort of event next door to you you |
| 08:50 | could hardly hear what was being said in them where you were that's an issue for them to take home in future perhaps but it didn't make a difficult uh uh listening or taking part in some of the events and that wasn't just a single place I came across in several different places so it was a common problem um there was uh the food was a relatively expensive and there wasn't much choice of it mostly and there was big cues for it uh so that was a bit a bit enough but there you go we managed to survive |
| 09:27 | um what else there were there was a couple of things about there was one thing about seaweed which I wasn't able to get to in the end because the trouble was I had to get off to the airport to fly home but I'm hoping it's going to be on the internet at some point from a group called Bellona with some of you might have heard of it's a Norwegian NGO uh or reasonably sort of responsible type one uh they've done all sorts of stuff on different um marine environment areas and they had one all over they had one |
| 09:57 | about on was it late on Wednesday that was all about seaweed and how to do it properly or something to that effect I think they called it 'd be interesting to see the recording of that when it is available I've emailed them to get the link for it yeah if you do get that link I would love to see that um was actually by a guy from the Netherlands who actually has got a website but the website wasn't worldly informative when I had a look at it um hopefully the talk will be a bit more informative uh so there was plenty of marine issues on |
| 10:31 | the table uh but I think still in terms of negotiations obviously there was a lot of frustration the way things are going um also some concerns with some parties about the um Paris agreement article 6.4 uh discussion this is the one about getting your things into the ndcs including things like carbon removal or whatever um I'm not quite sure how that turned out because not being in that part of the conference it wasn't that easy to keep track of what was going on because you're too busy trying to keep track of |
| 11:06 | the other stuff in all the side events that were going on so I think that's in a nutshell how I sort of perceived it hopefully the next cut will be better but I wouldn't Bank on it given it's going to be in the Emirates which is a bit of surprise to me I mean it's hardly a stone to throw away from charmel Sheikh and another country even more oil possible fuel based uh economy so um I wouldn't Bank on on them doing anything too radical frankly I could be surprised but based on Sean I'll show |
| 11:39 | you wouldn't really Bank on him would you foreign 's lined up so I don't know where but hopefully a more uh supportive country and possibly anyway we'll have to wait and see anyway and I think to be one of those down the line that'll be good Australia sadly has got its own problems in that regard but um no it's very interesting and um Chris uh you mentioned uh there's a notion that uh drop down in the oceans could be consistent with healthier oceans as well did you have a sense for the nature of |
| 12:18 | those conversations that you mentioned not really it was a general more of a put forward as a general commenter it wasn't suggesting at all sort of CDR techniques from about their nature but um but some of them certainly they felt would be but it didn't wasn't gone into in any specifics it was just a general comment more a more a point to say look not all of these techniques are necessarily going to be damaging to the ocean actually you could get win wins that would benefit the ocean and the climate it was that sort of context when |
| 12:47 | they were trying to put it over right and were any details put on the uh characteristics or the nature of uh solutions that could be win-win for the climate and the planet um trying to think I mean there was I mean Brad act promotion Visions was there talking quite a lot in different places given the general sort of pictures what ocean Visions are doing which covers a number of different areas as you know um apart from that I didn't really see huge loss in the specifics in the terms you're talking about no |
| 13:25 | and there were some there was also talk obviously about things like governance um and those sort of bigger sort of broad issues cross-cutting issues if you like um so it wasn't act that you were asking about no I didn't see any of that not saying it couldn't do in some places but if it was there wasn't much of it I don't think right okay and then blown event appeared to be a one hour event it was uh registered there and it just showed us one hour if I understand correctly on the uh 16th perhaps is that the blona what |
| 14:00 | are you talking about yes that yeah yeah it was all like it should have been on about half past four or something like this one on the 16th yeah three until four pm yeah anyway right hopefully that will be available on the internet at some point I think I think they did say on there I think it would be but I haven't had any response yet all right well interesting that thank you that's a wonderful summary did um any of the masses of fossil fuel representatives there mentioned the concept of methane splitting to produce |
| 14:36 | uh emissions free hydrogen um not that I'm aware of but they could have happened there were lots of Sands where there were um perhaps more fossil fuel companies were likely to congregate them on the ones I went to um like industry based organizations um I mean some there was a I think there was a stand for certainly about 100 if I remember Riley um but um no I didn't see much of them I think the industry people were either on those stands or or were involved in the actual main conference loving the delegates and |
| 15:12 | things of course and they get their way um so no I didn't see any of that about that because uh usually I would imagine methane would be a much more useful molecule than hydrogen uh just from a storage standpoint if not a utilization standpoint pem membranes perhaps accepted but I reckon the whole movement to hydrogen is just to so that the oil companies can keep selling something I mean there's storage transport management of it it's all a design it does depend a bit though which version of how you produce hydrogens the several |
| 15:50 | versions of how you do it some of the fossil fuel companies are behind some of them are not don't think they are and then I think The Greener ones if you like and not the ones that also a few companies are pushing I think they're pushing the so-called blue hydrogen aren't they yeah using electrolysis yeah yeah solar powered electrolysis yeah green methane far better than green hydrogen perhaps I I can't remember the how they produce it now quite a while so ago since I was saw something about it but there was |
| 16:27 | certainly some quite distinct differences between the different hydrogen production techniques yeah some funding for a company called High Rock who subsequently got a lot of funding from hydrocarbon industry and they're splitting methane with a plasma Arc um but at about 6000 degrees but it does actually interesting and it produces an awful lot of gaseous carbon um for which one can use for making graphene and Char and um so it wasn't it can be it can be a neutral energy anymore yeah that was the worst one of the |
| 17:09 | things I came across that wasn't quite right was there was quite a lot of saying that for example um CD art in East all of them maybe or by implicitation all of them are all going to be energy intensive and that obviously depends a lot on the techniques you're actually talking about some clearly could be if you're doing electric chemical alkalinity you need a lot of electricity but some of the other techniques certainly don't need a lot by comparison would be less energy intensive perhaps so there was I think |
| 17:37 | some some people were proned as they are to sweeping generalizations at times yeah this this one's about a 15 parasitic load 15 of it goes we would go back into creating energy which is used to run the plus Mark I see all right same thing for carbon capturing storage or um capture pass stations would use about maybe 20 to their actual output to actually capture the CO2 they're putting out so that's again the equivalent thing in that context yeah I'm kind of mystified at why people would prefer uh green hydrogen over |
| 18:26 | green methane the green methane of course is synthesized and it's a little more difficult difficult to produce but you could go into all the LNG applications whereas green hydrogen is a much less wieldy molecule or material to be working with interestingly um this is an example in the UK where they are all going to be feeding Hodgen into the gas Network to supply gas boilers in an area of the UK it's a trial but um they're starting off with a low percentage but potentially ramping it up I think over time |
| 19:02 | yes you might choose methane over hydrogen so hydrogen is notable for escaping from pretty much yeah and it also corrodes Steel by hardening it after a while so it's less flexible um um you you've also got to adapt all of your uh flame heads in everything to um more than a certain proportion of hydrogen in your gastroent so it's fine up to about five percent for sure and 20 probably but after that it gets a bit shaky and so there are really good reasons not to switch to hydrogen and also there's lots of studies that show |
| 19:47 | that hydrogen's just not very good as a domestic fuel right you're far better off storing it as an energy carrier and then um oxidizing either in a fuel cell or a conventional combustion process and then using the grid to drive things like heat pumps and induction stoves which is fundamentally less wasteful appliances than domestic hydrogen boilers which even you know even if they were perfect which they're not could only ever give you a one-to-one heat ratio in your home whereas a heat pump can give you like a |
| 20:18 | three to one BP ratio um yes okay um I don't think we just want to spend too long talking about hydrogen right um we want to uh I was interested to ask about yes um the um discussions that uh Chanel Sheikh on Albedo did it come up as a topic as I sort of hinted earlier there was really no discussion the sessions that I saw it did come up in sort of personal just one-to-one discussions with some people that I had but um no more than that at the minute it's still as you sort of under the radar as it were or people are keeping it down |
| 21:00 | there at the moment although I think there are certainly some scientists I've sort of spoken to who are uh who perhaps appreciate that in the end of the day we're probably gonna need to do it but getting people to move and accept that I think it's something they're still perhaps reluctant to stick millions of other parakeet one because my sense is that with the loss and damage negotiation that the value of increasing Albedo is uh is very high for the small island States in preventing loss and damage so uh yeah like we uh |
| 21:44 | John and I John McDonald and I have had made some efforts to uh to contact Nations such as kirabas and tavalo but um we we find that you know they're so surrounded by minders who uh who worn them off our line of thinking that's uh it's it's not possible for us to uh to engage in that conversation yeah foreign we just have to keep going uh I think your efforts Robert in particular uh are in the in the right direction and and uh obviously obviously we've all seen Robert Chris uh pitching in as well it's just a start |
| 22:27 | and uh you know I mean the thing is to get it in hopefully into um circulation in such ways that it gets a wider um sort of audience then it has up to now perhaps um and that's not easy I know yeah what's that Robert sorry I say that yay Tao was able to give a very good presentation on his mere um ideas uh a co-presentation so and um yeah there's so there is some progress uh Sean Fitzgerald was there uh-huh uh Sean Fitzgerald and Hugh hunt did come along to one of the events on the ocean Pavilion as I was at so I did |
| 23:17 | have a word with them there briefly Brian have your hand up yes um I'm reading moving to Higher Ground by John Englander it's very interesting and he takes the position that there's nothing you can do to avoid sea level rise but I see that the sea level rise coming out and by the way the late Connie Stefan who I met uh in Greenland in the early 2000s started out in the early 2000s suggesting maybe at most a meter of sea level rise but by the time he passed away he died on the on the ice in 2020 by falling into a crevasse that |
| 23:55 | was probably created by global warming uh but around 2018 he was on the record as expecting five meters of sea level rise um in 50 to 100 Year time scales based on his observations direct observations of Greenland um and I I just wonder if we might get the most galvanizing social issue that could build a political will is the loss of many of these island nations um and the possibility that rephrasing the Arctic could actually uh address uh sea level rise in a fairly significant way I wonder the case could be made for |
| 24:37 | that and um that this would be one of the few things that could actually Stave off the sea level rise that would be the absolute existential loss uh you know threat to um many of these low on Nations that's just it's not just the little Nations isn't it it's it's cities all around the planet yeah they're far more likely to sit up now because of toss about the low line Nations unfortunately yeah yeah it's the trillions of dollars of damage that people care about well Kim Stanley Robinson puts it in terms of a world |
| 25:12 | without beaches but it's also a world without thoughts and uh and coastal cities and uh with a large amount of um climate refugees and with the massive biodiversity loss that comes from polwood migration and so there's a very strong moral imperative for solar geoengineering to prevent sea level rise and protect biodiversity so there's an essential ethical case to be made but the prevention of solar geoengineering is morally evil and that's that's the sort of argument that needs to be advanced in in public and it would be |
| 25:59 | good if newspapers would give some some space but newspapers tend to be so polarized that it seems to be very difficult to get that that sort of line of thinking into into the public Arena Robert and along those lines I would imagine that engaging the indigenous populations would be a key early step to getting them on board with the morality of of trying to you know address this existential issue so I go ahead yeah yeah I was going to say that um the the fact that you Chris you mentioned that uh a number of well it wasn't recognized |
| 26:44 | institutionally a number in a number of private conversations people seem to be thinking yes we've got something needs to be done to do some Cooling that and the obvious massive costs and and people simply just don't know that they've heard of sort of SRM and it seems to be something apparently evil about it they don't really know much about it I mean I didn't really know until I got involved with climate change the difference between troposphere and Stratosphere I didn't know and I think a lot most |
| 27:13 | people don't know it's just the atmosphere and so there's an educational uh effort that needed and putting our heads above the parapet parapet and and explaining that Marine Cloud brightening is not the same thing um but you know either way you know even if Marine Cloud brightening doesn't work or wasn't wasn't it isn't going to work or isn't available then something needs to be done I did post a link to that Guardian article I sent you uh Chloe I've just put it in the chat for people who |
| 27:42 | haven't seen it which was about it was titled um melting point called Cloud brightening slow the thawing of the Arctic is in the Guardian newspaper yesterday yeah but sort of the first time I've seen something quite like that in a major newspaper I think with that sort of prominence I mean obviously what was in the text was that is some of it was distinctly um not as positive but uh saliva King was quoted in there and so on so that's helpful I think just one thing about sea level rise I don't see |
| 28:10 | any sort of solar engineering as stopping sea level rise completely you can certainly slow it but you've got to remember sea level rise comes from several different factors not just melting of the ice sheets in fact one of the other major factors is the heating of the ocean the expansion of the ocean due to the Heat and that will take a long time to get resolved because the ocean's got to turn over for that to happen so that is a sort of Millennium type time scale I think at the moment I'm not quite sure but I think that they |
| 28:41 | think that the melting of the glaciers and so on is probably of a similar order now to the effect that's caused by the warming of the oceans and I think facial factors increasing uh steadily as we go that's right if we did Marine Cloud brightening uh could we on what type of girl could we address the uh warming of the ocean the ocean's warmed to 2000 meters so it's going to take a long time for that to turn over and and that can be given up a great 2000 meters is a long time scale yeah exactly I don't think we can um |
| 29:21 | stop the oceans uh I I don't think we can call the oceans but what we can do is to uh is to slow the expansion down yeah through the kind of rate it was last century average last century which was well in the whole Century it only raised 20 centimeters uh so I've I've gone into quite a lot of detail on this trying to give to science on sea level rise in my paper for agu which I've posted you should yeah great so so I've tried to put the kind of arguments so quick I hope uh satisfy John England that it's not a |
| 30:10 | a lost cause great yeah that's and Stephen uh I saw was it you someone someone said today the uh uh difference of energy input to uh energy you know battered Away by the sun was nine orders of magnitude with Marine Cloud brightening a huge multiplier um and uh as Stephen who's not here this evening Stephen Salton um keeps saying that it's only 0. |
| 30:41 | 5 of the sun's energy additional at five percent needs to be reflected back out to space uh and so it seems to me that uh and he says the whole the warming could be stopped for the price of the security of one of the cop of The Glasgow copy he gave the example so so it's just absolutely right for you know um research before we move on I notice a new face um I haven't seen you before Tara vamos we usually ask people to say a couple of words of introduction well welcome it's nice to see you um yeah I uh I'm |
| 31:22 | I'm like I'm in my car I have to drive home in a minute but um what's your what's your background what brought you here hi uh I'm involved in uh uh lobbying for climate policy in New York state um and I've been involved with uh a little bit with Extinction Rebellion as well I'm located in uh in New York state about an hour north of New York City um and what brought you here I don't have friends with with what brought me here is um seeking information on I I know that there's uh |
| 32:11 | just trying to keep abreast of what's being proposed as possible solutions other than um just trying to get governments to actually move into tamping down fossil fuel use okay and other you know like I'm aware that there's like refrigerants um and there's you know of course uh animal uh like there's there's all kinds of different um dreams that you could look to for reducing um emissions and I think that that's all incredibly necessary um but I am aware that there's people that are looking at you know what else |
| 32:51 | can be done especially because there's such a lack of responsible um policy making yeah honestly needed okay okay great thank you for that if you if you don't mind if you put your email address in the chat then I can I'll include you in future uh uh invitations if you like um and and we discuss uh all kinds of things around climate science as you can hear and uh carbon dioxide removal from the ocean and other mechanisms or all kinds of this is this is scientists and you're welcome and uh and uh manager |
| 33:24 | green has been here many times and we we very much welcome people are going to take the message out we're all very very busy you know researching and replying to each other and helping each other and writing articles and and so the more the merrier so so welcome and thank you um okay and how are we doing for time we've had half an hour so we're not doing two but thank you yeah let's move on um yeah uh well if John's had his hand up for a bit oh sorry John John McDonald sorry yeah I think that's fine Tyler we broke I |
| 33:59 | mean Cloud brightly I was just going to mention that we've been shaking the trees for a bit uh Robin and I wrote to the minister for the environments recently here and uh about the idea of doing some recap brightening to mitigate uh Cyclones it's fashioned to Australia of course to come out come across from uh Micronesia next week I'm actually I'll be meeting with the minister uh this Tanya plebasec at an opening of the biodiversity Council University of Melbourne so I'm I'm hoping to raise it with her |
| 34:30 | personally again um see if she can at least get the idea about the Albedo pooling and whether they we can take some action and get people like Stephen solder involved it's just it's just another Avenue to looking at the hurricanes and the Damage they do of course not as not as bad as Cyclone as hurricane Ian but but certainly does a lot of damage to Australia as well so let you know how that goes okay thank you when's that happening that's next Tuesday yeah next next Tuesday okay and good luck with that um |
| 35:05 | Sean good luck yeah yeah um okay um Brian also suggested talking about the the grand X prize but um should we leave that to the end yeah no I'd just like to be short so let's do that now all right oh okay just say a few words about it that's all right bro well yes we've um just secured our uh second million of three million that we'll need to build a full hectare of marine permaculture at economic scale in the Western Pacific next year so we're very thankful and grateful for that support um increases the probability and |
| 35:40 | just a week ago we launched our solar Marine solar platform that will be able to support these hectare scale uh submersible seaweed platforms so we're enthusiastic about that and I think um we have to look at the possibility um of if we had sufficient funding could we accelerate and build um perhaps a dozen or more hectares next year that would provide enough carbon fixation to make a serious bid on the grand X price for carbon removal I'd be interested in people's thoughts on that and it is a a short time scale but it's |
| 36:19 | a it's a fixed one as imposed by the grand X prize and also as imposed by our need for scaling the sustainable mariculture and the carbon export considering let's say the planetary ramifications so be interested in people's thoughts on uh on that and uh you know that the challenges and pitfalls and opportunities we might consider in the months ahead don't rush at once okay because I just a quick question um have you had your proposal analyzed by yateau for Cooling why oh yes we actually documented I believe with uh |
| 37:07 | hpac the fact that uh well regenerative upwelling has a cooling effect as documented by I believe some researchers in the last decade there was a peer-reviewed article including Ashley's I believe yeah yes was involved in two papers what was the first author was Yule you will let him and I think Andres was the lead author on the other one yes so that that work was notable in the cooling effect uh I'm anticipating mainly a drawdown effect um with respect to the Deep cycling approach however there are some indirect |
| 37:44 | consequences that I think are are interesting and that is we're finding let's say we're using deep cycling to have the seaweed soak up nutrients below the nutriquine particularly nitrate and phosphate at night and then during the uh at Sunrise we bring it up to the surface and the top layer of the top meter of the ocean we're absorbing sunlight and carbon dioxide during the day and that's a very interesting cycle because you're actually not advecting nearly as much carbon during this |
| 38:17 | process because so much of the carbon comes in during photosynthesis during the day uh so that's a very interesting approach now what's interesting is there's a lot of particulate organic carbon and dissolved organic carbon that sloughs off the seaweed and there's some evidence in our simulation models that uh the buffering of nutrients and the continued growth of macro algae actually contributes to an extended growth of microalgae Downstream because they are sometimes heterotrophic sometimes they're eating you know the |
| 38:52 | the organic matter that sloughs off the main cup for us and so this suggests in some of the simulation models that in fact there's a microalgae that continue into the summer because they have this source of organic matter nutrients that might not always be there uh so that's a very interesting trophic Cascade if you will for macro algae to epiphytes to heterotrophs that are eating the organic matter to more nitrate production more ammonia production to more uh more more microalgae so it's an extended season if you will |
| 39:29 | of biological activity and uh would that cause directly perhaps not it may contribute to a bit more drawdown to be determined um I we just found it very interesting that the productivity of the ocean is improved when you do perhaps even the Deep cycling mm-hmm thank you Brian mentioning deep deep cycling uh one of my areas of research a couple of years ago was on hydrothermal liquefaction as a as a method to split the hydrocarbon stream from the aqueous stream of the biomass algae and the the point would be that the aqueous stream |
| 40:15 | contains uh Pi levels of phosphate and nitrate and and then yeah so that provides a a resource to extract the fertilizer from the deep ocean excellent I think that's a wonderful plan and would love to work with you more on that good excellent great okay let's uh make a start on these other things um okay Sev your document I'd like to do this paragraph by paragraph so could you put up the uh the document on the screen okay I need to find it um but um but uh foreign where was it here this one yeah um can we go |
| 41:21 | now I've got everyone's faces here I think I need some do this to it there we go yeah [Music] far away Seth if you can see that right well I I want I like the um the rest of you to go through with me and and let me know if you think any of the the order of magnitude estimates is uh is is way out for for one or other reasons the the first um the first bit I'm I'm talking about is the uh is John Martin's iron thing iron thesis and where he said that give me half a tank of iron and I'll give you an ice |
| 42:08 | age now that was partly tongue-in-cheek but with serious intent it's uh it assumes that the iron is uh equally scattered over the oceans and is absorbed by um phytoplankton so it can actually be used to extract CO2 from the uh that dissolved in the ocean and and to uh send it down to the seabed um foreign if we assume if you go along with my assumption that we can use most of the world's waste product of rice husks to be the basis the substrate for the the buoyant flakes then that leads to the likelihood of us |
| 43:01 | getting um something like 10 uh megatons per year of iron into the ocean surface which is a whole lot more than half a tanker and therefore that notionally gives the idea that we can call the the planet down um quite a lot maybe maybe in a shorter time than ice ages normally come simply by by um fertilizing the oceans does anyone have any any problems with um scattering over the ocean something like uh 167 million tons of flake every year that that doesn't seem to be impossible the if each if each bulk tanker takes up a couple of hundred |
| 44:03 | thousand uh tons that's not too many tanker loads to get rid of pop comments please um first question is buoyancy you've got a bunch of components that are density greater than one gram per CC uh how do you use a libulating leveling agent like which makes bread rise and the when the lignant hot note glue melts in The Matrix and then you you bake to the cook cook the Flakes with like breakfast cereals you might be doing but they the the levelant releases gas to to of expand the flakes so they're less |
| 44:50 | lesser dense than water okay and I'm reminded of my Rice Krispies which gets soggy after about five minutes and I imagine sogginess implies a breakdown of those nice bubbles uh it's just been experimentally verified that there's some other process at work um the the in your Rice Krispies the the the the rice itself uh uh is hygroscopic lignin is not so if you have a basically lignin producing sealed pockets of gas the the water will not migrate into those sealed Pockets because the yeah the glues are doesn't doesn't let it |
| 45:38 | wonderful thanks okay Chris please yeah just a couple of things um I trust in the earlier paragraph I question whether um phytoplankton blooms per se will necessarily always brighten the sea surface they certainly will sometimes depends on the first Plankton blooms and it depends also not all phytoplankton blooms right at the surface of course you do get blooms of algae below the sea surface that may have less effect anyway in terms but but for me the idea of putting in the amount of material you to suggest into the ocean suggest to me |
| 46:15 | that there will be significant effects on the ocean besides what you're doing um because I can't imagine that putting those quantities in will not have knock-on effects in all sorts of ways I can't even imagine probably um and I think you I think although you are working on experiments with India I think or have done um that will be helpful to prove some of these issues um such as Brian raised how they actually work and so on was very helpful um but I think at the moment the concept of putting the quantities in that you |
| 46:47 | suggested besides which you are going to use some waste materials that immediately brings you into the London Convention of London protocol despite the fact that it it's entirely under the London exhibition protocol the the scientific experiments would have to prove that you're not doing uh any net damage and only then would you cautiously scale it up I would caution you with my experience when I was for example um many years ago trying to negotiate a guidance document about artificial reefs and certain governments |
| 47:24 | um this was in the Ozark convention rather than in the London but nevertheless it's similar number of governments involved um they objected to the use of waste per se full stop irrespective of the benefits at all and that is a problem you may come up against with certain governments and of course you don't need very many governments to sign slimy things happening because most of these decisions of these bodies are done by consensus rather than by a majority voting well that's that that's true the the politics is always the uh |
| 47:57 | the hard part with uh Geo engineering hey I'm just warning you yeah was that entirely politics Chris or do they suspect that um you know some poisons might find their way if it well um it's I would think my experience I would say was probably at least 90 politics uh it was just um particularly the German government in particular and and some of the Scandinavians as well uh took a line that just was waste material being used bad full stop the fact that there was benefits from it was another tasks are natural material |
| 48:32 | not a waste material yeah but you've talked about waste no hang on you've talked to specifically mentions using waste iron and phosphoracic Clay waste it has two waste materials you're proposing to add in yeah yes yeah so I mean that doesn't have to be a show harvesting if you harvest if you harvest the hulks and you dedicate other husks and you dedicate the iron specifically to this purpose then neither is a waste product uh I don't think that'll that'll fly it's just part of your uh work to save |
| 49:05 | the planet yeah yeah yeah but the fact is they are waste materials so they yes you want to use it for the benefit of the planet I'm just telling you my experience and how it is perceived and it it may not be as simple as you think it might it is very strange though Chris that the like we're talking about a circular economy where we're recycling products and the environments the environmentalists are opposed to recycling which is is quite a strange sort of uh the part of the problem is this is a marine perspective because |
| 49:39 | they have this perception of the marine environment being relatively pristine and therefore we shouldn't be doing adding any waste materials to it we've added enough to it already in their view that's where they're coming from I'm just I'm not necessarily supporting this at all I'm just telling you this is one of the things you'll come up against yeah absolutely right I read the London protocol actually image there I did read without a protocol and first of all it permits experimentation |
| 50:05 | not deployment but experimentation right so just to do the science to decide whether it's a good idea or not um could be could be done right um the other factor to bear in mind in all of this sort of concept is that the convention of the protocol are applied by nation states by their own National legislation so there is a degree of um interpretation that some states may be able to use if they wish to be positive about it or negative about it um so that's something to bear in mind um because also some nation states are |
| 50:47 | permitted to take stricter views than the actual conventional protocol if they so wish so some states could just ban something for example that's permitted otherwise by the convention of medical for example the the interesting the salmon farms in the sea add um fish waste to to feed the the salmon yeah that that's the wise product how do they get get approval uh well it's not counted as dumping at Sea I suppose um is basically how it is um but it is not big at Sea yeah I'm talking about in terms of the |
| 51:23 | definitions that are used as opposed to what it is in itself um because there are there are exemptions anyway built in for example exploitation of Natural Resources I.E oil gas uh seabed minerals and things are all excluded explicitly from consideration irrespective of what they may be doing there may be ways to manage those complications as well um people like the alliance of small island states have you spoke to uh are much more interested in these kinds of or much less seem to be much less afraid uh than some of the |
| 52:03 | wealthy or oecd countries and maybe uh able to provide support if if it got to that point yeah there was in fact a webinar I saw recently where someone said that he they had spoken to some the global South States in some context I can't remember what the context was and they seem to be more amenable to do experimentation in general this wasn't necessarily just Marine it was the broader issues around climate um uh there was a perception that they might be more flexible right can we move on to the Albedo |
| 52:39 | effects now yep um yeah I'll have to go in a minute I do have one minor comment and that came from earlier today and that is simply that um turns out deep cycling does have an indirect effect on Cooling and that is when you bring the the algae up and it's growing it's going to produce dimethyl sulfide as well both in the in the kelp forest and microwave Downstream and that will contribute to Marine Cloud brightening so um there's actually a very interesting ramification the magnitude of which we |
| 53:08 | might try to assess with tapio Schneider and others but I think this DMS primary production effect is one we should try to quantify yep okay okay that actually leads us nicely onto that yep yep now I I I've looked up the references on the the Albedo of uh open ocean dark dark blue sea is about 0. |
| 53:37 | 06 whilst that of green grass is is around about 0.25 now I've done up I guess to say okay well um we're not going to be able to get as as much Albedo as green grass but maybe we can get half as much as green grass so I've suggested that using boiled flakes might be able to increase the Albedo of the deep ocean Global ocean from 0. |
| 54:08 | 06 to 0.12 which is doubling now I don't know I haven't got the engineering Mouse to quantify how much that will change the the radiated forcing as Stephen salt has provided calculations on that by the way Sev sorry Steven Salter has given calculations and how the Albedo change uh affects the relative forcing yeah right well well maybe Stephen will be able to uh do the character for me I I I don't have as much credibility UC would have being a professor of engineering okay foreign to the next bit then oh sorry does |
| 54:56 | anyone uh strongly object to saying for my my guess of 0.12 for um an Albedo um increase if you increase the uh phytoplankton concentrations I just wondering take a little pause it'll be a lot higher than that but for ordinary uh blue green algae probably less than that yeah again it'll depend on the type of species I mean datums may be different again for example um and the other thing to bear in mind when you're looking at if there is any data on these you need to consider the um uh what which ones are the dominant ones |
| 55:39 | and now and the items are well by far the biggest blooming uh species in the ocean uh and several others come along as well so you need to balance both the Albedo effect of that and also how much of the ocean will be covered by different species to give a sort of balance of those things exactly yeah I think you can get some idea from the satellite views of of phytoplankton blooms that they do brighten yeah the ocean which which from space looks pretty black which means that the Albedo is probably yeah less than one |
| 56:19 | I I don't want to make a blue blue make a very small change in a large amount of ocean yeah that's difficult to quantify yeah okay um moving down to um the effect of dial vertically migrating species in particular Antarctic krill if we can go to the the my um order of magnitude calculation there's there's about a bit under 400 million tons of Antarctic krill now a hundred years ago there would have been two or three times that that that amount that we've we've fished it out a lot um if we're saying that |
| 57:09 | the Krill can eat about five percent of their body mass every every evening when they come up to feed at night away from the um visual Predators if they take that five percent down to the about the thousand kilometers deep which they normally sink to and then they Digest part of that absorb part of the nutrients and the carbon into their bodies respire out quite a lot of CO2 at that depth and uh excrete uh basically the the remainder of their gut contents um and then proceed to ascend again uh probably assisted by the fact that |
| 57:59 | their their metabolization of the uh of the carb carbonaceous fuel has turned it into krill oil which is lighter than water so they have a a hot air balloon effect which helps them to rise again without expecting much energy so if you take the calculation 400 million tons Point by five percent of body weight by half of that being water and by half of the remainder being carbon you end up with five megatons of carbon per day or about 18 megatons of CO2 equivalent per day being sequestered by these species that's a pretty hefty quantity and if we |
| 58:54 | can manage to increase that by increasing cruel numbers cruel habitat and krill nutrients which they feed on that is a really important method of both brightening the ocean and of sequestering carbon comments please save as it possibly I mean it might be a nice problem to have but is it possible with the employer place to become very popular with other sea life as well the largest sea creatures so that they could be gobbled up by then routing the Krill the intended purpose it could be gobbled up but um because um lignan is such a |
| 59:49 | intransigent product it would probably pass through their guts and come out relatively unchanged the the algae coating the outside of it would have been digested but the flakes themselves would come out in the in the feces and probably float up again and resume their their their method acrylicated anyway yeah yeah okay Chris um yeah just a couple other things um the species of migrate up and down through the from the thousand meters up the top is not just Krill of course some other major species that do that as well |
| 1:00:29 | which are different things like lantern fish for example I've mentioned the amounts of um and different species will presumably react slightly differently in some of these factors that you've achieved I guess um the other thing is I actually asked somebody um guy from Woods Hole oceanographic institution about this particular idea and he said that in his experience and he's done a lot of sediment trap work in deep Waters he does not see the quantities you're talking about going down below the uh this sort of level of |
| 1:00:57 | a thousand meters at all it just doesn't all catch those that in my long paper I show uh I show why sediment traps are a very poor way of capturing traditional traps oh but there's some more uh different types of traps now that drift and a lot more which are much more effective Untold and those ones and they're much more recent uh devices than uh the traditional Cinema trucks they don't capture the the the gut content of krill and the other species moving up and down they only captured when the feces are expelled at depth |
| 1:01:36 | yeah that's what I'm that's what I'm talking about I'm talking about traps down below a thousand meters they're capturing the stuff coming down from those species having being excreted as you described yeah I don't know the detail behind it all but that is in his view you do not get those onesies naturally at all that you're suggesting I don't know the data behind it something that needs could perhaps be looked into but those those um those new methods also wouldn't capture all the CO2 which was respired |
| 1:02:06 | at depth by those feces sediment trap it doesn't capture CO2 obviously but CO2 respired at a thousand meters is sequestered for a long period uh Fair period yeah yeah certain pins where that yeah so if I'm interested in the question around um the the permanence debate because uh it seems to me that uh the the aim is to permanently increase the amount of carbon that's in uh biomass and the fact that the uh that the carbon is constantly cycling through uh from organism to organism is uh in my view it's it's not |
| 1:02:52 | um it doesn't have the problem that is often claimed that because it's not permanently removed from the from the system that it somehow doesn't count in terms of the uh the cooling effect um so uh like I think that that's a debate about carbon accounting which uh is a bit of a stumbling block for uh for your work in terms of how things are currently officially interpreted and it's a it indicates a need for a change in that official interpretation to to acknowledge that we can have you know a |
| 1:03:30 | permanent increase in the biomass I I imagine you know 50 gigaton permanent increase in the biomass is that like what what sort of scale of ocean biomass increase might be uh possible if you know yes I agree with you absolutely and Bruce strongly that opinion too I believe yeah absolutely yeah I think we we all are we discussed this two weeks ago saying what a huge loss there's been and most likely what what a huge uh you know Carbon pump that was uh it doesn't surprise me that we were going into another Ice Age until you know we |
| 1:04:12 | started burning things so it makes me anything you increase biomass but but only if if it's protected because if it's not not protected obviously fishing vessels are going to come in and just clean it all up again aren't they so it seems to be if if you really if all these experiments and all the all these interventions simply can't be done then the only alternative would you say all right then we can't put anything in the ocean then we're just going to protect vast areas and let it all come back on its own but it seems as |
| 1:04:45 | you said last time brute it's much more helpful to give it a bit of a help give it some nutrients to get started that that seems to me a a a valid Way Forward is a bit of both you know but protection and some kind of uh an initial feed um fertilization uh anyway was that there was some more you wanted to talk about uh and then we've got uh another 25 minutes yeah um and John wanted to talk about his paper so good right I'll try and I'll try and wrap up in about five minutes yeah it's it's very great stuff uh Sev so |
| 1:05:20 | um we've already spoken about that that Stephen Salter has estimated there's a nine orders of magnitude uh energy difference between uh making a a droplet of of or an aerosol of seawater that's right it's reflective capacity yeah that's that's a huge a huge beneficial effect if we can simply make that happen um on the um the ice Shield thing I I'm just really talking about how how fast we could uh uh refreeze the Arctic and I'm suggesting that that even as a single um wind turbine used for ice |
| 1:06:06 | Shield making purposes could it ends up could could make um many square kilometers of of uh deep sea ice in the Arctic and sub-arctic I'll I'll leave that there let's let's go on to the next topic could I just make a comment on the ice Shield uh I I have I won a prize at MIT for my work on tidal pumping but I've never been able to engage anybody on it and I think that using tidal pumping to uh in the winter to make uh lenticular ice shields in the Arctic Ocean would be a a very good application |
| 1:06:54 | energy source is is a great benefit for that sort of purpose yeah we'll walk to the tides in the Arctic I don't know a tight area I don't think it's it's a the concept of using tide at tidal energy simply for the water flow rather than for electrical generation is not one that I think has been widely studied and so just using tide for what like I I've uh did a design of it but I haven't built a prototype even so it's it's an area that is connected here that I'd just really like to be able to follow up |
| 1:07:32 | with serve and also Brian just before the use there's so been such a lot of interest in use of of wave or wind or solar for the uh the uh water pumping but if we can use tide to help move the water then I think that's got a big scalability well brew and John have do a lot of uh sailing uh they might have Maritime info I'm looking at it no there are tides in places quite strong tidal currents in parts of the Arctic um not as much in others but you know where the where the geography allows squeezing yeah certainly |
| 1:08:18 | okay maybe I can take that up with brew and serve afterwards have a look on windy and scroll down until you get to Tidal currents and you've got some pretty good data easily available so it's not so yeah it's a few years since I've worked on this Wendy that's quite a nice little tip as well okay thank you thank you very much Seth uh right um and so so John please I wanted to talk about your paper if you're there Jon listen yeah hello yes um so what I've tried to do is to show how Milan milankovic Cycles caused |
| 1:09:17 | I think is to come and go or more strictly now they talk about glaciation periods and interglacials or Studios um so uh uh how that affects the whole planet um how does that help us with our cooling um yeah what's the sort of link to you know yeah the point the point is that these uh Cycles are um result in in Peak warming signals in the northern hemisphere uh and these are Amplified by the the melting and Retreat of of sea ice and the repercussions uh there was this this obtains a a vicious cycle of warming |
| 1:10:20 | so that's positive Albedo feedback uh in the Arctic and that is uh the the sea ice is a is a Tipping Point in a sense it's retreating uh it's probably more like a switch than a to being pointed so uh isn't this stuff's well known isn't it it should be but the the effect on the atmospheric's circulation doesn't seem to be widely known okay uh that it's the reduce what happens is rapid warming in the Arctic reduces the temperature gradient between the Arctic and the Tropics and that has an effect on the on our |
| 1:11:13 | circulation so the three bands that are of weather systems that you normally have they're called Hadley cells uh there's uh the one in the subtropics is Easter is uh as a prevailing wind and the westerlies and then you've got Arctic Easter is again anyhow um if you if that's held together because of the uh of the temperature gradient and the earth and the uh the energy comes from the deputy gradient and and the Earth's rotation so if you reduce that they want rosby waves uh between uh these bands uh meanders more to North |
| 1:12:00 | himself and it tends to get stuck and to get uh weather extremes and when it gets stuck um the the uh he hate all uh water or dryness yeah we know this stuff we've been having these the last few years haven't we the extreme weather in the US in particular but the Met Office for example doesn't acknowledge this okay that's amazing which is amazing um and um so if you if you can uh call the Arctic you can reverse this effect uh this trend of extreme weather yeah and you you can also reverse uh the trend towards accelerated sea |
| 1:12:52 | level rise and possible disintegration of the Queen of the Night sheet you can also slow the down the methane feedback that you get from me saying from throwing uh comes Frost and hopefully you can rejuvenate the uh Atlantic emergency returning circulation but that's that I I don't go into that because it's quite difficult to know what what's going on even now let alone what might happen but um seriously we must refreeze the Arctic here at all the very good reasons to refreeze the Arctic yeah it's it's as |
| 1:13:40 | simple as that you've got to do it and if it doesn't happen yeah and and the main problem uh well those two problems uh as Chris has said people are scared of SRM which you have to use and the other thing is that the fossil fuel companies uh don't uh well they don't want the SRM anyway because it upsets the state status quo but they don't want SRM for the Arctic because they want to exploit the resources there an example of that is in the latest U. |
| 1:14:21 | S um uh policy on the Arctic you know where the clear clear statement they want to exploit the architect of course no mention of the problem that My Eye shield process allows Transit transa polar sea routes as well as refreezing the Arctic so you can have your cake and eat it using sea root but but I mean people like Trump want to buy a Greenland in order to exploit their mineral resources and things like that so you know you've got these people who are just greedy and out for growth especially their own uh growth of their own |
| 1:15:08 | billions uh uh stacked against us against the science which says the common sense obvious thing to do is to apply powerful coupling methods and I think they would would work certainly stratospheric aerosol injection could work because it could be scaled up to the point of uh about the amounts of volcanoes Annette now there's plenty of SO2 around because the refiner is um so the cost cost of doing it is mostly in taking up strata tankers or modified high-flying objects um altitude and yeah and they're being papers to show some about two degrees |
| 1:16:10 | cooling can be produced at the cost of like I don't remember what I think I was it might take 32 billion dollars a year more than two degrees is of cooling is needed in the Arctic though isn't it I mean it's that's probably of the whole planet yeah that's just a scaling Factor um what do you mean it's just a scaling Factor uh well you know if you want four degrees you it cost you 44. |
| 1:16:40 | 00 a year yeah right and I I mean we have this you know uh fair enough John it needs to be just we need to keep repeating and keep talking about and understanding it better um but we know we don't want to say the same things every time I'm not clear what the you know what I mean is sort of politically toxic and everything but but why is it I thought um David Keith worked out that actually people are not gonna suffer terrible droughts you know if it's done or if it's done in the Arctic or something um there are no uh well there are some side known for side |
| 1:17:20 | effect one uh side effect of SO2 is is uh the um ozone depletion yeah um uh but you can minimize that especially if you inject uh north of 50 or 60 degrees in the Arctic The Proposal they uh David Keith and Co suggests is that you do it at both poles in order to not to move the um the converged Zone at the the equator yeah um but actually the conversions Zone has probably moved so you might actually do some good to move it back uh sorry the Convergence Zone what's the Convergence Zone um well I can't remember what the |
| 1:18:13 | initials are the inter something into tropical convergence that's so right yeah it's a tropical converter where they divide is this but it seems to me that you it seems to be a bit more it'd be more useful if you did a paper on what could could be done just uh in the art you know above the what is it the 60 degrees uh um line you know line of latitude and and what effect did I think that would have and and how it would be you know it could be done more up there where it was where it'd be needed and be needed to |
| 1:18:48 | refreeze the Arctic and not in the in the other areas um because the problems of drought or whatever uh perhaps because people want to um do things yeah I I wanted to produce a paper that we might might actually get published by agu in order to bring all this stuff together in the public uh so it does say something new then does it does say new things well I I don't think anybody else has written a paper advocating emergency ASAP right okay and and you know okay uh yeah this is the climate crisis uh and it's getting worse and it's getting |
| 1:19:37 | worse faster yeah yeah uh so I got stuck on milankovic cycle so it's really advocating yep uh refreezing the Arctic yeah but I I started from malankovic uh uh because that gives the big picture of how how the Earth system operates and if you don't understand that uh you can't be very confident about anything you do on a large scale does the abstract say that this the the Arctic must be refrozen for these reasons uh uh not not perhaps in the abstract but I put it right at the top of the paper now uh so it says in bold |
| 1:20:28 | bold type that's good underline that's what busy people and people like me is just oh what's this you know do I do I have to read this probably do yeah John wants to talk about you know we're going to talk about it later so I need to read some of it at least and then uh so but I thought it was about that's what I thought it was about any other comments from other people it shouldn't just be the me and John talking here uh I did put a link in the chat about a paper that's called Marine Cloud |
| 1:21:00 | brightening as effective without clouds which might be interested John um suggesting you don't have to have clowns in the first place that people have assumed in order to create uh clouds with MCB that's a very interesting point I uh we we hardly discussed that at all um well well I think uh Stephen has said that uh you might get actually get more effect from producing clouds from brightening well I either that or making the clouds last longer rather than brightening them yeah so uh that's it so some of the claims as to |
| 1:21:46 | what MCB can do appear per site totally exaggerated but they they actually include these other side effects which may be actually greater than the cloud brightening itself if if you do the basic calculation of how much Cloud there is your area of the oceans how much Cloud there is how much of that you could you might be able to brighten uh and then you work out uh and you and you estimate how much you can brighten the cloud which is kind of Point uh not five Albedo change you multiply those things together uh you don't get enough to uh |
| 1:22:39 | to call the planet really Stephen thinks you can um Stephen thinks you can and I've I've done the calculation for him and he says oh no no uh bought this and that uh he doesn't tell me my calculations wrong okay which is a bit disturbing he does the calculation he he's got a little yeah he does an enormous calculation and then he says to do the Psalms yourself I did the sum to myself uh using just I only needed a few of his stickers did the sub calculation and it wasn't a oh yeah it wasn't it it was it |
| 1:23:19 | was bordering on being enough but uh not not and that assumed that you were constantly brightening every single uh Cloud that came your way um you know a very high efficiency okay okay so so uh I'm sorry to say that I I can't be too I can't put too much confidence in in Marine Cloud writing at all oh well okay yeah I I would I would much I I'm more confident that we could get some Clan uh brightening from DMs uh because you know um well phytoplankton do have got this feedback effect which uh the late level uh James |
| 1:24:12 | Lovelock I mean yeah uh pointed out in this kind of um Daisy uh system for brew knows all about this it was so-called claw claw yeah he's claw paper which is which is one of his pet pet series about uh God of gladly that there have been a few um pushbacks against that paper as well uh but it's not quite as straightforward as they made out as it inevitably what happens when someone produces a new addict well um there's another great advocate of that and that's uh uh Russ George who thinks he could call the planet quite |
| 1:24:54 | easily yeah it reminds me speaking of Russ George are you all aware that he's pushing to carry out so-called three experiments in different areas around the US in the next year yes yes no I didn't know yeah what on on uh yes with that article circulated in the financial times um a month ago no yes it was a New England and um I can't remember the third one I was talking yet somewhere anyway will we find it if we Google it um Chris um possibly I'm trying to remember all right I'll find it I'll find a link |
| 1:25:40 | anyway thank you you're certified on his website um yeah he's going to his website but he's got several different websites now because it's not just a straightforward Russ George one there's one called uh is it ocean pastures Alaska I think and there's another one called ocean pastures something else and and so on but I mean you might find the links on the original Russ George website yeah yeah it's worth a look and now um I shall I I've been putting the uh my text and then into a into the format |
| 1:26:15 | that they require for for the um presentation I I would I'm looking for a a nice diagram showing the uh showing the atmospherics circulation with the three there are three bands and an alternate Hemisphere and this and the uh rotation um of the earth [Music] cell are you think you know John yeah yeah I'd like a nice diagram in PDF because I could put it on my in my presentation if you if you know of one that would be good it has to be in PDF together John I have some doubt about your um mega tsunamis thing coming from from |
| 1:27:09 | Greenland because I think that the the Greenland Glaciers are too narrow to give a mega to Tsunami you get lots of carving but I doubt you get mega tsunamis any thoughts on that um yes um the idea of giant icebergs cascading to the Sea came to me uh about 10 years or ago or more from a very eccentric man called Albert Calio yep oh yeah and it has happened beforehand I don't I don't dispute when when the North American ice shields were melting letting out uh you know glacial lakes breaking and that then you would |
| 1:27:57 | have got it but I don't think you get it from Greenland so he showed he showed me um uh scars at considerable depth uh where the Hudson Bay would have collapsed yeah North America you get it yeah yeah uh and he said uh there seems to be also signs of uh scarring from Greenland glaciers yeah but not not massive only big books hang on at 800 meters yeah that implies message so anyhow I I I kind of stalled this idea in my mind thinking gosh that would have produced um a mega tsunami 10 kilometers across so it's not it's |
| 1:28:55 | not massive it's it's tall but it's not it's not mega tsunami at all or wide um well we talk about um you know if a uh a cliff claps in the in the uh Las Palmas Islands or somewhere one of those islands that's an unstable Cliff it would cause the mega tsunami yeah uh and and if you look at those Greenland um glasses you can see you can see the size of the blocks that are carving uh enormous so if if those were traveling uh at speed because in an avalanche that would create an Almighty tsunami |
| 1:29:46 | and yeah I put that idea away and then um in 2014 I think it was Jim Hansen came up with a paper about some huge boulders uh landing on the island in the Caribbean uh and there were a series of Boulders suggesting not not one super way but several waves and uh that was uh there was one dated to the email and one date to the early Holocene yeah and he said uh he says these are these are fantastic storms that we're liable to have with climate change and and I said it's I I wrote to him because you're allowed to give official uh |
| 1:30:45 | comment on the paper and um I said it could be a tsunami uh then uh from from Greenland or at least from the Arctic um I looked at the map and blowed me down the North Atlantic Ridge uh goes north directly north south for about 400 kilometers would act as a perfect reflector of the wave energy towards these particular Islands uh and then that was a kind of crikey moment from Greenland yeah yeah so from from West Greenland yeah it would be funneled out into the northern plenty the the wave energy would be reflected by the thing and the thing |
| 1:31:45 | would pop up on the island of pattern knows how high the uh tsunami would be but it would have to be very high to carry yeah uh uh carry these bowls to the height of the size of the boulder under the height yeah so anyway we're about we're done with our our time um and uh it's the it's this getting things done that we're interested in um and uh so I appreciate you doing your paper saying that we've got to refreeze the Arctic somehow it's got to be done um and this is how we think it should be |
| 1:32:24 | done so I think if you make that very clear uh then it'll be useful yes I was trying to make the sound a scientific case as I could but yeah but it had to be done because yeah you know scientists are always saying oh yeah where's the peer-reviewed um yeah very good yeah uh hats off to you for keeping on going with all this yeah um I just want Andrew did we ask you to introduce yourself you you came along for the first time I think a couple of times ago did we ask you to introduce well I think we we all see your emails |
| 1:33:01 | we appreciate the work you do okay all right everybody any last comments Before We Say Goodbye um and Andrew is the moderator for the geoengineering googly group and he has excluded me uh from the group on several occasions oh dear uh I I wouldn't mind joining just to so that they can see my paper and see if they can see any logical flaws in my argument but I think it's pretty strong so if you can if he's here next time ask him or send him a chat or well send him an email for phoning him or something yeah |
| 1:33:52 | it doesn't have doesn't have to be John who puts the paper on the thing necessarily does it good point yes anybody could could do that yes yeah just just one quick thing I just remembered from cop27 it's a very general thing quite a few people made the comment that a lot of ocean monitoring systems of all types including things like the amok are on a hand-to-mouth funding basis almost none of them are on a long-term funding stable system which is quite worrying really when you consider that we rely on some of these things to tell |
| 1:34:29 | us what's going on so quite a significant extent I just thought you might be dude I'm not trying to depress you but that's just the reality apparently literally was sent to mail for years a year almost a major monitoring things really needs to be funded properly for a long term um yeah so as it was good can I mention one cooling technology which I didn't go into and I think does need to be and that's Cloud removal especially in the Arctic winter if we could remove clouds and let the uh yeah uh Stevens talked about this if you |
| 1:35:11 | could send us a link John sorry yeah yeah I I don't know of any uh really serious academic work on on cloud removal and it deserves to be done because it might be quite cheap if you could if you could get clouds traveling over green Greenland in Winter and Seed them and make them produce lots of snow you could brighten the surface you could increase the the ice mass balance so there's more snow falling than melting um which would have a which would actually reverse sea level rise that it's reducing a moment you know it would |
| 1:36:03 | be wonderful uh such a simple thing but notice note is looking at it and and I don't know that anybody's actually looking at the um infrared radiation from the Arctic and and seeing what's happening to it um as opposed to the Albedo uh which they did look into I haven't seen anything recently about arctic Albedo and the effect of all the certain stuff that's on the Arctic surface and so they're huge gaps in research and it's very worrying as Chris says if this lack of commitment to monitoring from |
| 1:36:48 | satellites for a lot of these scenes perhaps somebody should do a paper on the research that's needed and and the solutions that should be sought and that these opportunities possibly exist as you just said do more make more snowing or thin the clouds in the winter yeah and so forth that would be a good thing because they've got no idea if they don't we don't they don't know do they well and Andrew lockley actually produced some suggestions for the kind of research you need to do both classific aerosol injection uh because |
| 1:37:22 | there are some um known factors like the Brewer Dobson's circulation is is something that's supposed to be there and not sure it's ever been actually been measured and it'd be uh I'm sure there's technology that would allow one to measure um we can we can monitor we can uh monitor what happens just so SO2 plumes um uh and the stratosphere but you don't often get and I'm going into this uh to the sorry into the troposphere and you you need to motive uh we have to monitor so all this should go in a paper |
| 1:38:10 | shouldn't it yeah yeah what what can be done that's that's perhaps my next paper yeah okay yeah this one yeah stay alive yes yeah research needed yes yes addendum perhaps yeah I I'm gonna call a halt folks um I don't want to keep you any longer than you expect but goodbye and uh see you in a couple of weeks and yeah that was stimulating and great and thank you very much John and seven everybody thank you all cheers yeah bye bye for now foreign |