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| 00:24 | okay hi Grant good morning Clive yeah good morning well good evening I forget it's uh yeah good well we're just just on the verge of this afternoon so yeah I'm close it's known for you yeah how is it the time change is it a a pain for you okay is it better to be a little bit earlier doesn't make any difference to me one o'clock two o'clock airport noon I'm middle of the day |
| 01:29 | okay I can set it aside no problem okay and uh you enjoy these meetings do you uh grunt I certainly do I'm looking certainly looking forward to this one with uh so much happening in Egypt and yeah well not happening in Egypt yes yeah I've been getting emails that everyone's miserable because apart from the only the only good thing is Biden and she seem to have made friends again uh around the climate issues they have a mutually mutual interest in it yeah their economies are under threat from climate |
| 02:13 | so yeah but what they can do about it is another question well the conversation is good and the increased activity in the increased level of activity in the U.S quietly while the money in my opinion is misdirected yeah there's a chance of it uh being modified and the conversation is growing uh particularly uh significant as a outcome of our election yeah which was Tuesday which was meant to be a red tsunami I've been there to be a pink stain anything more than that and the the Republicans are forced to acknowledge |
| 03:08 | the reality of climate change deniers of many colors are going to have uh difficulty finding audiences or a significant strength in a future so both the activity that the Democrats have taken and the result of the election is I of course I'm looking for encouraging yous and yeah after so much bad information or bad uh things happening out there I'm a little more optimistic than I had been about where we might get to there's a opportunity for change here yeah at least if they recognize the existence |
| 03:54 | of climate change they might start then thinking about what's the best strategy and and we've probably you know the initial the Democrats proposed and was passed on a bilateral basis is putting a lot of money into uh mitigation and there's more conversation happening around research and to even into Sai and calling the planet now that's a long way from deliberate action for to implement a solution but compared to where it's been this is a bit of a sea change so I'm holding on to hope around that |
| 04:41 | great great well hi friends hi John hi everybody and uh hi Stephen hi I can't seem to make my video work but never mind doesn't need it yeah it's nice if we can see you Stephen um but uh if it's not working then that's right I don't worry too much about it um um okay well it's time to start and so welcome everybody uh good to see Robert and see your emails all the time Robert make it very clear and the responses with um Chris Robert crisp and Brew I I thought what you said last time about bass lines was extremely |
| 05:32 | useful actually bass lines yeah yeah major Point yeah that's very helpful um right let's do what we usually do um and going to word and uh we can do one of these and what do we want to talk about today I I if I just say it's crossed my mind today these meetings have been very educational for me uh and so I really do see I mean it's not quite the same as the hpac um who've come out with that wonderful document and they've actually done something you know um I'm not saying we should have done |
| 06:14 | something um but this is very much a just open discussion uh and learning about science from each other and as I just said think about bass lines from brood just just odd tidbits and and so it's it's just I I my mother would say it's a Waffle Shop you know um but I think it's more than that it's it's it will certainly be an educational to me anyway so with that what do we want to talk about I'd like to follow up on uh the conversation with France um about uh Sai and uh um uh problems with Sai I suppose |
| 06:56 | yeah okay okay yep excuse the dyslexics amongst us but I I really struggle with acronyms all the time what's the Sai one uh yeah yeah okay stratospheric aerosol injection of course yeah yeah it just doesn't come naturally I'm afraid no problem uh it's quite a good discipline yeah yeah uh yep anything else um Brew uh brought our attention to um a model exercise of Northwest Australia I just responded to him which indicates that uh nitrate fertilization uh could increase the biomass by between uh three |
| 07:51 | and eight times hello oops oops could increase by Ms yes I am well right uh by uh yeah yes uh between can I make that later please and seven times uh so who was that that Bruce said that was it 11.7 so to see what he thought yeah okay yeah thank you yeah so I'm happy to add the C fields to this the discussion because we're working with them um and it's quite a dynamic team and they're actually doing things right in the South Atlantic it's um Victor semitek um on Ma |
| 08:53 | with a scientists involved at a a great friend of mine Sebastian Stevens who's the entrepreneur investor buyer along with it brother right uh let's put the name down Sebastian Stevens because we get to know these names excuse me um right is that the thing that's involving uh Victor smeta check as well yes yes yeah right uh so a kind of an update on that then this um exchanges I saw an exchange with you Steve Steven Salter with meta um and someone said oh you know clouds warm the planet um well it depends on the time of day |
| 09:44 | and the season of the year yeah uh certainly they certainly warm at night yeah they keep the heat in don't they yeah yeah I think I'm just uh I'm trying to think about my own understanding so let's just have uh sorry to say Clyde uh a cloud calling because one of our proposals is all right it completely depends on that um so um Guardian has done a nice letter to meta uh explaining it all and uh it's quite it's quite the balance is that they're cool if they're low down and they warm |
| 10:31 | if they're high up right change in between a day and night yeah yeah that's right so they called you in the day um just just to have a bit a little bit of a chat so I saw his reply is that what you mean his letter his email replies it was this evening ah I didn't see this I saw one this morning okay so I'll have a look at that but I don't think I might not have been included in that um so but that so that would be nice uh Stephen if you don't mind broadcasting that or send it to me and I can I think |
| 11:06 | interesting to both the discussion is um what Rob the left is has been pushing which is the biosphere's own ability to self-regulate through transpiration of plants and the release of of particles into the air be they micro absorb fungi or spores or whatever but it's I think it's a very interesting concept and um you know it's I I love following natural systems yeah natural patterns of the way things work and I think basically the more transpiration you get the more uh heat you get released in the |
| 11:54 | troposphere at night as the moisture condenses and therefore tends to radiate off planet sorry it tends to radiate as as water condenses from The increased transpiration it releases heat to the atmosphere yeah which can then radiate off Planet very readily at night off the planet okay it radiates out to space kind of thing and the extraordinary thing is that we've got all this science suddenly coming through where we're discovering the interconnection between plants and fungi and the amount of communication that goes on and the level |
| 12:36 | of control mechanisms that potentially exists and I I I just see that a whole side of things has been really quite fascinating when I was in Geneva it led me into a whole series of discussions on uh Quantum Computing and raising the questions is the biosphere itself functioning as a as a Quantum system so it was a it's a yeah certainly microorganisms the guy hypothesis yeah a Quantum system um yeah entitled this is this is this is the ultimate entanglement where a Azure plank to the one side of the planet is actually impacting A fungi on |
| 13:22 | another side of the planet to release a small supplement wow okay so let's get to that box of complex adaptive theory as well which overlaps with us yeah it's not it's not really entanglement as the physicists thinker but it certainly is a kind of entailment no yes yes it's it's slightly different but it you start seeing all sorts of analogies with other living things and other complex sets of organisms yeah start thinking bigger if I put CF Quantum system like a like a Quantum system a form of entanglement |
| 14:01 | right okay so that's that sounds a very nice discussion I'm uh uh uh chime along with that myself yep um anything else perhaps there's a a question Clive are there any learnings yet from uh cop 27 or any possible mood swings going on there and any sort of news basically basically news yeah thank you it means anything yeah mood swings or yeah yeah the age pack people there and the prag people are not sure the Prague seem to be there and and doing some good things yeah okay that might be enough unless there's |
| 14:52 | anything else anyone wants to discuss I don't want to cut anybody off okay then so let's talk about um the first one problems with okay injection thanks Clive uh I've just been uh fairly uh active and just engaging with some of these conversations and I really appreciated hearing a reply from France um the paper that Doug McMartin published uh this year which was circulatory geoengineering Group by um um uh by Andrew lockley um is is one that uh Doug had drawn to my attention when it came out and it it |
| 15:47 | pointed out that the modeling indicates that um uh roughly 20 million tons of uh sulfur dioxide per year uh could cut the temperature by two degrees and my comment was that that scale of cooling uh simply blows all the carbon-based methods of of cooling out of the water in terms of value of the money and France uh commented that the uh the technical um problems with um stratospheric aerosol injection uh so severe that's uh it's best uh not to um not to Advocate it and uh to which my response was well have a look at what |
| 16:34 | David Keith said which is an investment of two billion dollars in um in testing all of the different methods um would prevent climate damage worth 10 trillion dollars so five thousand to one and so uh my my point of view is France May well be right that it you know it may be that the for example the uh the methane problems and ozone problems I think associated with stratospheric aerosol injection and that it's uh simply not going to be viable but uh maybe we would be better off um including uh stratospheric aerosol |
| 17:18 | injection at a very low rate like you know they say um 20 million tons could um uh um prevent um uh two degrees of warming um and Professor Why not start with a very low dose and also why is it that all of these climate people are constantly saying oh there's nothing we can do to to prevent us uh crossing the 1. |
| 17:48 | 5 degree threshold when uh you know here's a major scientific paper saying if you do this then you can stop crossing the 1.5 degree threshold they're just flatly ignoring it it's it's a form of uh social censorship it's really quite immoral in my view so those are just some thoughts for me I'd be really interested in France and may wish to respond and I'd be be interested in other perspectives on on that that whole set of issues we could do the same with MCB and indeed possibly even with the The Ice Shield stuff yeah so this is the point that's |
| 18:23 | the point that David Keith is making that uh that all of those methods uh should be uh properly tested and and compared uh with a a collaborative national uh well-governed uh process yeah and you know they could look at the you know the questions that France is Raising but yeah sorry uh sorry Clive no I was just agreeing that yeah absolutely this should all all of all of the above should be probably tested just as you've said I'm agreeing with that yeah so friends I I said uh to Robert um it could also be a good thing for for |
| 19:05 | Isa because if they use sulfuric acid they uh sulfuric acid aerosol and it it comes down trickles down into the troposphere and we have for instance uh a stormy weather over the Sarah it would coagulate this sulfuric acid with these are particles in the air and produce ACL in the same amount then so for it as it comes down and this normally we have about 300 PPT uh HCL over the ocean and if if this would be doubled or tripled they may send the the amount of covering |
| 20:16 | uh desert dust with HCL would induce uh uh Iron's required cover this is uh photosensitive and would that's that's the reason I said okay if they do it with SL2 it could possibly do some good or even if we if we use either also and it's uh the plume has a very strongly send then uh additional HCL could be helpful and the increase of the Miss and depletion effect |
| 21:18 | but only if if enough UV comes down if the plume spread and it would just lose its ability to make HCL but yeah you're saying yeah yeah yeah yes um that was my reason but yes this must be tested yeah yeah I have something I'd say about that but uh but Grant put his hand at Grant thank you so here again we are looking at a quantity I think we heard 20 million tons of SO2 trials are not going to be carried out at 20 million tons and here we are saying well let's not try anything not just with SO2 but in so many other |
| 22:05 | potential Solutions oh let's not try anything because at 20 million tons there's going to be a problem well if it's it's not the difference between 19 million and 20 million tons where the problem is created why aren't we trying it with thousand times a hundred tons and then we can start putting data in place of opinions the lack of data and the number of opinions we can get uh counter counterposed here yeah do a small scale information and we've got opinions we can't get rid of them |
| 22:54 | yeah you need data absolutely yeah the reason the reason for that is that if a a 10 ton trial showed that it would be very effective and that some of the hypothetical scare criticisms that have been postulated are uh are not important than uh then that would uh immediately open a path to to deployment at scale and the the climate movement in general is of the view that the main thing is to shut down the fossil fuel industry and if if Sai was deployed at scale then that would that would then lead the political system to say okay well we've |
| 23:36 | got breathing space we can have a slower uh trajectory on decarbonization and so that's that's the moral hazard politics of it which means that any like even even a test like the skopex one that that involves no release is is banned on the slippery slope argument well I think that that argument is is going to have to be made to fail we don't need to put all of our eggs in the SO2 basket it's possible to say let's see what happens at 100 tons and then let's see what happens at 200 and 300. and if you |
| 24:19 | find the minutest level of bad effects you cut it back to the previous level where there was none detectable yeah I I did I'd say net net bad you could you can have some bad effects but if the good effects are better than that you can still do it but what Robert is but if you but if you this over multiple methodologies you are trying different approaches to the same solution and on that same application in the end you may end up with a handful of approaches of methodologies that collectively could make a difference but here we are saying |
| 25:04 | well in the absence of data let's just do nothing yeah well I think Robert's point is that uh that the better they work these people the the worse it will be for these people because they'll say oh no you've got something that works this is really bad news because now the politicians are gonna are gonna stop bothering to limit fossil fuel emissions and uh so we're all gonna die but I thought it was quite well argued in the hpac uh document uh saying that that argument is silly because uh we're |
| 25:41 | damned if we do and we don't in that case we're damned if we do and we're down if we don't because tipping points are happening now and uh Brian you've got your but I I take your point to uh Grant I mean that's that's how I think it's it's this moral hazard argument that gets it stopped all the time that they don't want it to be successful uh that's how I see it yeah Brian thank you yeah um so to answer this at three levels uh first of all there are a huge array of laws in place |
| 26:15 | now of what's sorry regulations prohibiting the emission of sulfate in fuels I mean they they go through a huge Refinery process to try to take sulfur out of jet fuels there is some amount of there is some amount of decreased life and acidification that occurs in a turbine and I think there's an argument to be made that you're getting uh sulfuric acid erosion of Blades of some evidence for that in peer-reviewed literature um that said so so dealing with regulations of course has a huge momentum and a challenge and that is to |
| 26:58 | go back to a state of high sulfur emissions I'm reminded you know the hockey the hockey stick in in U.S temperatures notably Los Angeles occurred in 1980 which is exactly during the passage of the Clean Air Act which is probably a significant reduction in particulates and sulfur in in fuels in in the United States so it is you know we've done the experiment um and uh you know it probably does work pretty well uh the thing is there's a bunch of regulations we have to get over second as you've stated the moral hazard |
| 27:32 | um you know there is a concern that uh look you know we're we're in this we came out of the pandemic we went to the Ukraine war and so many groups so many countries are talking about doubling up on call you know Call's gone from 50 a ton to 350 a ton sadly Australia has announced you know new call minds they want to open which is just like oh my gosh can't we get past this um and and so you know if if you know your life's better on drugs whether they're self-hate drugs or something else it's like how high are we gonna get |
| 28:09 | you know uh and so there's this question about um you know is this a license and sadly you know we you would hope that the Ukraine war and the energy crisis would drive people towards renewable energy much faster but sadly I'm kind of seeing a trend towards coal um nuclear is getting a bit of a sustained life you know this is huge gaps and people are scrambling we're utterly dependent on energy and if there's any excuse to keep business as usual on energy rather than have to go to a renewable energy transition it's very clear that |
| 28:49 | governments will choose fossil fuels so this is a way to go higher and higher on our you know we're going to get higher and higher on drugs whether they're sulfate drugs or fossil fuel drugs if we're I'll if there's any alternative that's what politicians will choose and then the third one is as we get higher and higher on let's say um Sai drugs or other kinds of drugs on the planet globally there's a real problem of winners and losers and that is we have done the simulations I mean not me personally but |
| 29:20 | I've read them and uh seen that okay you're gonna have more rainfall here you're going to have less rainfall there and now the equity country to Country becomes critical because you know there's some incentives I mean you could argue that Russia's got an incentive to burn baby burn because Siberia is going to turn into the breadbasket of the world uh you know so there's kind of this the set of winners of losers um that I think is a challenge now the one thing that I um that strikes me as |
| 29:48 | interesting you know when somebody says put 10 tons into the atmosphere I'm kind of thinking okay and how are we going to measure that you know it's kind of they're they're actually maybe a method that we borrow from uh uh code division multiplexing um I've seen some work on this it might be feasible in the Arctic it's it's you know it's really interesting and challenging and I think from the perspective a lot of these um climate Justice folks suggesting someone that we just uh you |
| 30:17 | know put a few tons into the atmosphere and see how it goes um reminds me of being just a little bit pregnant and that's kind of a binary function you know so there's kind of an interesting set of trade-offs there so I think we've got a channel you know address these hazards that said before I finish um I will say that the Arctic represents an interesting way of sliding this into this incrementally if we can make a strong case that the stratospheric atmospheric motions are polar and we can be limited to the Arctic that that makes |
| 30:52 | sense and there's probably some chance if we can get the social acceptance to do this um through the United Nations or other means then there's probably a way to figure it out a very weak signal from the noise using Code Division multiplexing and other kind of spatial modulation techniques that would enable us to correlate small differences in Regional performance uh based on the presence or absence of uh of a stimulus so I think there is hope but I do see decades actually of work on building social acceptance before |
| 31:29 | technically it becomes really politically possible I would say to do this but anyway those are my two cents we're happy to add to the discussion as desired thank you very much Brian thank you I think you have your hand up uh friends I've wanted to say why uh start with these uh trials in the stratosphere why not starting in the troposphere over the ocean where they uh no no Urban past and maybe hurt others yeah I do agree that we did study this back in 2010 in America's climate choices and I would concur that the |
| 32:16 | consequences are much shorter term and there is evidence for tropospheric benefit there are also some qualitative differences in that you're dealing with low tropospheric clouds that are high temperature and good infrared emitters and I think the stratospheric clouds will be low temperature and very different infrared signature so there's some qualitative differences as well but it's certainly a step I I've got a simulation of uh what the Tumi effect does uh for just a 10 kilogram a second of salt |
| 32:49 | being put up and you can't see the results in in a satellite image but but you you can see the result if you take a hundred images uh different uh different times and rotate the images to make the wind directions be the same and add them together and then you can see tracks just from 100 images which is take about a week to build up and that's just from 10 kilograms a second there's a slight worry that if you put up stratuspect sulfur uh it works brilliantly one it's daytime and summertime but it works in the wrong |
| 33:30 | direction in Winter because it's reflecting back the outgoing long wave infrared that you would have liked to have got out of space and it's reflecting it back now the same would happen with Marine Cloud brightening except that we can stop doing it in September and it will be uh washed out in a few days the the thing is it's the long life of the Strategic helper which shows that we actually could get some warming in parts of the very high latitudes now John Nissen is is does not accept this idea but I have |
| 34:08 | got a paper where I've I've shown this up John Newton says that if you do the injection at 60 degrees north latitude then it will have been washed out and done by the time that the winter comes I think that everything gets everywhere and decays exponentially so there'll be quite a lot of it left in December when when it's doing the really the wrong thing and I think everything gets everywhere and goes away rather slowly from that point of view I will send the pictures of the uh detecting the plume from from Green Cloud writing |
| 34:51 | and the the warm bit of of the Arctic it's particularly bad very North uh I'm not sure quite sure uh if people understand that the The Brew brew adult Dobson circulation is is uh moving some stuff somewhere but just the turbulence is jet streams and things are moving lots of stuff in other directions at the same time so I don't think it's all going to be gone in the time that you hope it'll be gone okay thank you Stephen uh along those lines just a quick response uh one is I think there's an opportunity to inject between |
| 35:35 | 60 degrees north and 90 degrees north and secondly to focus the injection in the springtime so that there are actually multiple RCA time constants to Decay and so um if it is limited region to the extent we can document the forward migration of stratospheric stratospheric atmosphere uh and The Descent that occurs over the pole uh and and adjust the timing um yeah I wonder if there's an acceptable attenuation of sulfur on a seasonal time scale in that limited geographic region you need to get that number that's that's exactly |
| 36:13 | right at the moment you can't assume that it's zero I agree yeah it won't be zero and we have to see how the benefits thank you Brian uh John of course one of the major hurdles is to convince the indigenous peoples of the artists the examines and the new it's that this is worth doing and build up their trust they're very much on the decarbonization bandwagon and uh we've been got out in that area so that's a challenge would it work in the Antarctic if you have these social problems in the |
| 36:51 | Arctic could we try the experiment in the Antioch absolutely yes that's what Robert's been saying too I mean this this is this makes more sense geopolitically far easier to do in the in the airtight and Australia should be leading this you're absolutely right so I'll save easier and harder having seen a Victor smetichek's experiment derailed uh in the Southern Ocean thanks to the Antarctic treaty um there's you're gonna see you're gonna see Greenpeace suing you in court so you better have you know 100 |
| 37:21 | million dollar warchest to to go and fight Greenpeace over the stuff based on past Behavior yeah yeah so what that illustrates John is is that it's it's essentially moral issue you know if if people are saying look there's a practical path to uh to cut um uh Clive can you please enable screen sharing I just want to want to show the uh the graph that I um so the um the graph that McMahon and Al used showed this black line which is uh the 4. |
| 38:05 | 5 watts per square meter which is the shared socio-economic pathway or um what what's the other term sorry it's just gone out of my head um and uh and these are the various uh the other colors of the various models business as usual that that they've done well business as usual is is more like uh eight Watts okay and um I think yeah so and uh massive decarbonisation so and so this this point that by 2070 this blue line is is what I call the uh the um million tons per year um starting from 2030 through to 2070 and uh with a result of uh cutting |
| 38:49 | temperature uh back below uh uh 0.5 degree rise and so to me this is a big moral issue that you know if we do cut temperature below uh 0.5 then that will provide prevent uh much of the sixth Extinction and so it seems that brainpeace are in favor of the sixth extinction by saying oh we're not allowed to even uh do any any any testing so I think that that's quite morally evil on on Partners Greenpeace and uh that uh framing it in in that moral context is a way to uh to open up a public debate and I I find it very |
| 39:26 | disturbing that Albedo is not on the agenda for the except for for the occasional very courageous brilliant person like gay Tale and uh so uh just opening up this conversation is important so I was so pleased to be able to uh to share these ideas on the ABC Sideshow again you know that just is uh falls into a black hole of uh uh uh touch five tactic you know death by silence and uh similarly um you know any uh yeah uh so uh Clive I I think that's probably enough on this topic okay I just wanted to yeah as well there's been |
| 40:14 | lots of discussion um John do you still have something to say about it just adding to the prize comments about sulfur and aviation fuel of it a long chat with brinder miners head of Shell Aviation uh is of world Authority Under something and he he he took the point but he said there's been so much momentum to get sulfur out of fuels that it would take a massive you know National engagement to to reverse that you know and he said it's it would take five years plus and you'd you'd have to convince a lot of people I have |
| 40:46 | very good reasons to do it uh there could be some degradation the engines that's that's fairly minor it's more than just the momentum describing removing it all this is this is part of our problem you know which we're trying to turn this thing around and because we're saying it's going the wrong direction but uh you know the whole industry's been heading the other way for some time removing something from everything and is it because I mean I assume it's because of uh pollution that |
| 41:14 | they don't put you know people breathe in sulfur dioxide there's seven seven million people die of pollution from various sources to every year but you know we could lose eight billion the thing is that they they removed the sulfur dioxide but they don't remove the black carbon did everyone see that I sent an email with that picture from UCSD showing black carbon going up and up and up and so and sulfur um there's the cooling from sulfur dioxide plateauing for the moment uh and so they they're just |
| 41:48 | removing the part of the pollution that's useful for for calling the planet but not removing the the black carbon particulates so so they're not it hasn't even worked yeah and it doesn't it work for what they what they wanted it for and it's caused damage and so the whole thing was was based on a fallacy by the by the sound of it and that's I'm wrong about that unless somebody can tell me I'm wrong you've got your hand up yeah I just want to draw attention to a link to an |
| 42:19 | article that I've just posted which appears to show that the cop there's been some movement towards freeing up on experimentation now the article is actually complaining about that but I just put it there for everybody to have a look at and draw their own conclusions and determine whether it's a relative but I thought you'd be interesting all right that's in the chat then thank you yeah okay okay should we move on to something else that's very interesting discussion uh right uh okay um so you wanted to say something about |
| 42:54 | something you got from Brew on nitrate fertilization could increase biomass between three and seven times yeah it's just a a a a recent um article um called um um blue dash economy.co.uk's Special Report and uh it says that um um it it shows a modeling experiment in Northwest Australia off the coast showing how nitrate could uh increase um biomass fighter plugged in by several fold my response to that is to say that yes the modding exercise may be useful in supporting our claims that when fakes might increase the amount of ocean |
| 43:47 | biomass up to several times however I suspect that to maintain the mixed layer nitrate concentrations at three millimoles per cubic meter for a year might take a very large amount of continuous Dieter addition furthermore it might well end up with the creation of dead zones as I found off the Louisiana coast a better over overall solution would probably be to use the iron in boiled flakes to nutrient the growth of diazotrophs that would also be rather more likely to generate a marine biology having uh Dale vertically migrating species to |
| 44:27 | increase the rate of long-term sequestration so I'm saying an interesting modeling experiment but not a good way to do it in practice but it does show the way what might be a good way in practice okay any comments on that I find it interesting that there's more and more experiments beginning to see the light of day and less and less pushback against some of them so there's another thing came through from Russ George the other day you know saying that they're about to get on the stuff and they're doing it quite openly and |
| 45:06 | publicizing the fact so I I that's interesting with Brian you'll have a view on that because you're right in there well I think rust storage is anything but open uh sadly in many contexts uh depends on the timing but uh I think you know he does do press releases uh and you know I think uh there's a chance to do some good technical work there but um I know there could be some benefits to walking softly and carrying a big stick getting those results and then publishing those results and getting |
| 45:41 | third party reviewers along there as well so there's a lot going on but a lot of it's inducing a lot of environmental groups to fear and the challenge and the opportunity is to move Beyond fear and actually bring you know some of these environmental groups alongside and develops you know demonstrate small-scale results that uh can be you know brought forward gradually it's a real challenge yeah if you could do experiments uh you can leave future generations to decide whether or not to deploy the idea that |
| 46:18 | you found if you say you're not allowed to do experiments then you're permanently locking them out of using that technology so you really should be able to do any experiment that you want even ones that really look quite dangerous in small amounts and then stop them and if you don't want but if you don't like what's happening but you need to understand what's going to happen good or bad no I agree yeah after all you can get away with commercial activities you can drive ships around you can change the |
| 46:49 | fuel you can stuff stuff out as long as you don't cause an experiment it's just Thomas going on that's crazy yeah well there's a bit of a barrier with respect to the illegality of burning high sulfur fuels in some contexts so given that it's illegal now making it desirable you know it's an interesting set of uh hurdles I would say I was going to say that um most marine clouds as I understand it most marine clouds are nucleated by sulfur dioxide from phytoplankton and so they're removing the thing that |
| 47:28 | occurs naturally anyway well it's dimethyl sulfide that turns into uh the sulfur yeah yeah it begins yeah I think it oxidizes yeah we're trying to do exactly the same thing as the as the phytoplankton yeah yeah uh but well yes and they but they just decided it was a bad thing even though that's what phytoplankton produce and um I was going to say friends this sulfur dioxide trickling down from the stratosphere into the troposphere it's it's what triggers down is sulfuric acid sulfuric acid if they have sulfuricrest |
| 48:09 | sulfuric acid trickling down first of all it gets into the upper troposphere and that that would make cirrus clouds and they have a warming effect yeah so surely so I I think this is not as I understand it this is not the modeling that that Sai doesn't isn't supposed to trickle down into the troposphere because it do the cooling in the stratosphere and then it'll start doing warming as it makes clouds in in the upper troposphere therefore they should start in the lowest troposphere not in the stratosphere yeah or or show us or you |
| 48:46 | know to explain that it goes around in the Brewer Dobson uh circulation then comes down and then doesn't go everywhere so as we said this is the uh uh this is the number that needs to be determined experimentally the other thing is you said before that uh sulfate in the iron salt aerosol inhibits the chlorine production chlorine atom production the Zedge trials showed but uh it inhibits not uh in total partly just a little bit okay yeah okay thank you okay uh right next um is yeah so I guess I'm farming through |
| 49:34 | this is for you bro yeah well I I was just interested to raise that I mean I'm talking with um the seafields team quite a lot and uh indeed I've just introduced stuff to them and you know we're looking at what they're doing because they've got a demons in Vincent they've got experiments going on um they're working on this stuff um I'm trying very hard to persuade them that they need to put some boiled flakes out there and have that as a second string to their boat because I think |
| 50:03 | that very large amounts of sargassum um will have some serious practical difficulties in terms of containing it and uh and harvesting it whereas the Body Flex thing seems to be far more elegant um but it might also be a way of prevailing the nutrients that they need rather than trying to do things with upwelling pipes um but I just wanted everybody else has been reading up on it now that they've had a lot of press coverage um let's see what reactions there were seems not proof no okay well anyway I'm |
| 50:39 | learning more I'll report on that as it goes I mean if you if you it's so hard there's so much stuff comes in emails it's uh I had to pick and choose so um yeah if you if so but if something comes from someone someone like you that says hey this is worth reading everybody read this before the next night meeting I'd like to discuss it then a few people might read it yeah um yeah uh okay on that just one of the thoughts that occurs and if you if they're moving that forward and they are harvesting it and |
| 51:17 | chopping it up and compressing it the likelihood of a lot of emissions gas system missions selfie typed emissions going into the atmosphere which strikes must be quite High and I'm wondering what the impacts other impacts of that would be perhaps quite good make lots of clouds you just raised the point earlier yeah I don't know whether a sargassum produces sulfates though does it uh H2S that's only when it's rotting we don't want to write nice H2S does H2S oxidize in the atmosphere friends uh yes if you if you're putting |
| 52:03 | it on land on a heap but not in the water no not really in the water yeah and there's this huge problem of sargassum washing up on Caribbean Shores yeah but it's got a bad name right because right I guess it's all this is all I'm just untethered so I guess I'm not roughs isn't it it's not it's not it's not tethered and controlled in a way that they know where it's going to end up I see some problems with those guys wander around um and change shape you know over sort of five six seven day pattern |
| 52:53 | which might make it hard to uh contain or keep in one spot you might break up and go all over the place I mean this this existing uh sargassum problem where it's this huge amount so it's washing up on these Caribbean Shores does anyone know why this why why this has started happening in the last I don't know 10 or so so it's 20 years I'm wondering if it's because there isn't anything left to eat eat it anymore they've killed all the turtles and and everything that eats sargassum would |
| 53:24 | that be the reason was anyone no different unbalanced ecosystems and of course huge amounts of nutrients washing out of the South American resistance shipping yeah fertilizer and so forth there's also some indication that there could be some um mesoscale of boiling occurring in the tropical Atlantic that can be contributing to the exponential growth of sargassum across the Atlantic so there's probably a combination of factors I'm just thinking about you know one storm and you've got or one hurricane and you've got this huge |
| 54:00 | Escape of giant megatons of sargassum and a huge liability for the Caribbean tourism industry not to mention um just the Caribbean countries themselves so there's this huge uh risk you know and potential liability associated with large-scale sargassum in the Atlantic that I think at some point at some level needs to be addressed yeah you're suggesting Ryan that there might actually be some changes going on in the ocean circulation that's actually changing the nutrient distribution which might match |
| 54:35 | it's a little bit like the changes in the Amic um and other factors interesting thought yeah I remember I was going to say that that um map you had Brew of the uh whaling that you showed last time that the the disused whaling areas from I can't remember the the date but it was 100 150 years ago or something like that wasn't it 1873 or something yeah do you have a link for that uh yeah because that that really uh that ties in with your thing about the baselines yeah it really is yeah it draw a lot of |
| 55:18 | interesting conclusions since you take it even further back I will try and dig it out for you thank you very much nice piece of ammo to keep around okay um okay Cloud calling what did I want to ask about that um well we we're sort of excited so this is you know mainly for Stephen about our you know uh titanium we think we can make we're pretty certain we can make very small particles I mean where they'd be all the same size we know that's a big very useful if we could make in the same size bye putting on a vapor of these chlorides |
| 56:02 | titanium uh tetride silicon tetrachloride and then aluminum chloride and the the detainer silicon sept they immediately react with water vapor in the air to make turning titanium oxide silicon oxide which is sort of a sticky they make these sticky sort of mineral particles very quickly and the aluminum chloride which is very hygroscopic condenses onto them and uh and so that's uh and that can be done from anything so it could be done from jet planes and so they could they could uh you know emit these particles |
| 56:43 | uh above the clouds or in into Cloud tops they could do it in the Arctic in the summer do you think what do you think Stephen do you think we're onto something or do you think we're gonna I don't know enough chemistry uh I'm I would always be initially worried about breathing anything into your lungs that was a solid yeah uh I mean that they're correctly they um they flocculate so first of all it's tiny tiny amounts uh and it's in remote areas as well the tiny ones are the worst though |
| 57:21 | the asbestos stuff yeah but they don't get stuck in your lungs because they they flocculate so they as soon as they meet with so this is the chemistry as soon as they reach a water body so including your own your own body your respiratory tract they fly they become sticky they it's and it's the same chemistry it's used in water treatment to remove particles but this is inside your lungs and if it's sticking all more dangerous I would have thought it would be less chance of it being breathed out well it gets worse I |
| 57:58 | don't know enough medicine yeah or chemistry they come down in raindrops so unless you know we can't breathe in raindrops that's right the the fine particulates below PM 2.5 for example are those that cause the greatest health issues they go deepest in the dorms where they do affect the alveoli yeah so France can you explain how that how it gets removed I would say um they the concentration of these particles per cubic meter is uh roundabout or below 10 micrograms per cubic meter yeah but uh we could also go lower to |
| 58:46 | five for instance yeah these are about uh thousands of particles uh a pair cubic centimeter yeah so I mean isn't it the same Stephen you want to make salt particles 100 nanometers isn't it isn't it the same thing salt is soluble yeah okay yeah so you know you you can breathe salt out and if you get into your bloodstream and you'll you'll urinate it so there's a big difference between something that is soluble and something that uh is is a hard put a bit of a bit of rock a bit of mineral rock yeah |
| 59:31 | but don't people breathe in Mineral dust if they go in the desert this is why this is why I have uh terrible lung diseases yeah which doctor discovered none of the patients who worked in salt mines ever had anything wrong with their lungs yeah so plenty of other problems they didn't have a very good diet but they didn't have lung problems yes you can so salt is actually very good for you if you're bringing it in and I was looking at whether we could have um salt particles trying to get rid of covet viruses |
| 1:00:11 | the salt particle we want to make weighs 10 times a polo 10 times a covid virus and if I wanted to get the London Underground to have a hundred thousand particles per cubic centimeter which is what you get if you're walking along the beach in bad weather it's only 20 grams of salt to treat the whole London Underground right 20 grams of salt yeah to treat the London Underground sorry how does how does it treat them well therapeutic dose it's therapeutic okay I I'm yes I have have fans that are |
| 1:00:54 | doing the air conditioning underground and I put the salt particles into the outlet of the fans and everybody in the London Underground all the passengers they would think they were walking along the beach in in rough weather I could put some images on the walls to make them feel like it too yeah but way more salt than that as a result of people's sweaty bodies in the underground yeah all the time yeah I mean yeah it doesn't go into particulates no not at that level so friends we do these particles if they get breathed |
| 1:01:36 | in they go into the lungs it's a little bit of mineral it's not exactly dust but it's sort of the sticky stuff that's got aluminum chloride on it does it does it do they stay there does people die if they breathe it in they they are very small but they can't be yeah but but as small as a problem isn't it yes can they get removed does the body is the body able to get hold of them and and the the secret particles it can it gets out by the bodies the mucus sort of things yeah but the little ones who get stuck will |
| 1:02:13 | they the little ones are between them yeah they cannot they stick plastic and they stay forever yeah I think so yeah but but what you're saying is it's it's very very tiny amount it's so small it's much less than the yeah I think it's the uh you will not do it the whole yellow at the same place and you will not do it in urban places yeah it says asbestos dust I mean there are some some things that your body can cope with and self-clean others that they can't we we sort of uh using in the |
| 1:03:00 | on the ice sheets of Greenland for for instance or in the in the in the in the open water to get it uh to get it cloudy and yeah and what's there so when the military put titanium tetrachloride and they make all this white fog to obscure uh their operations they've been doing that since the first world war they their concentrations are much much more much higher yeah yeah and so have there been uh health problems to soldiers getting problems from breathing that in big big problems okay oh what let's back up for a moment here aluminum |
| 1:03:47 | chloride is soluble in water so it would fall under the salt category that Stephen so aptly described yeah but uh that that covers the particles that we're talking about so the car particles covered in aluminum chloride uh aluminum chloride will uh coagulate to other medium hydroxides that's the pH in the lung and it makes kind of clay isn't it so we're seeing people breathing it clay dust that's better the the clay production is in months months it takes months but if you get stuck in your lungs then it's stuck in |
| 1:04:29 | your lungs for your whole life the rest of your life so it's going to become like clay very small stuff can cross the blood brain barrier you get in your brain as well with the chap in Edinburgh who's been breathing in very very finely divided gold the project working with Edinburgh and Sweden and they can detect gold in people's brains hmm but right be very small to cross now if the whole particle was actually uh aluminum chloride then it would dissolve just as Stephen Salter suggests so I'm not talking about the |
| 1:05:07 | surface but the entire particle if you want the activity with aluminum chloride I don't know if it's possible to make such a particle but that would meet the salt requirements that Stephen acquired it described for assuming there's no other toxicity there hmm you use a uh aluminum chloride for coagulation in wastewater treatment plants yeah I guess the question is can we create particles of pure um aluminum chloride if we can that might be an interesting alternative well it can be uh just like iron three |
| 1:05:50 | chloride it can be sublimated it's a lower temperature the 93 chloride foreign but uh friends I hadn't realized it gets stuck in the lungs and can't come out but what you're saying is that the toxics that the the mass is so low yeah less and uh uh micrograms take a week meter the massive asbestos is very low and it still causes so it curses it along as does other insoluble particles I think the key is to develop a soluble particle yeah that addresses the salt requirement and actually may help the ones |
| 1:06:30 | hmm there we go friends maybe we've got a bit more work to do Medics needed on board doctors and medical Cosmetics get some Medics on board yeah get some Medics on boards and the medics because often I'll speak to friends after a meeting like this and he'll explain why actually it is it's going to be fine Medics do actually put salt into the breathing of people on ventilation machines I spoke to them at the beginning of code we're trying to get them interested in sort through and they said they were already doing it but |
| 1:07:10 | they're putting it in as a liquid solutions but they they do they're already shove it in and it helps quite a lot um okay water animals and so as sea water animals we do like an optimal level of uh of saltiness in our in our breath I suppose and our other environments yeah yeah thank you everyone for that um okay and then biosphere self-regulation and all this stuff uh talk about that that I think that was you brood um and the Gaia Theory and things like that yes I mean I've been um talking with Rob |
| 1:07:52 | Billet um and you know he's really interested in the way the biosphere self-regulates its temperature so you know just as you and I sweat maintaining our temperature the um a healthy biosphere with plenty of life on it has ability to control potentially the amount of water vapor that goes into there when it goes into beer and um the particles that go with it therefore can control the um type of cloud formation that occurs and if you you know see the whole thing as a interconnected interacting organism then that's perfectly reasonable if you |
| 1:08:46 | if you then take half of the functionality away and there's a massive amount of forest that we've removed but more than that the removal of the fungal networks and this is all this fascinating science coming through now where they're actually following molecules of different things between the roots of different trees at distance and the communication that's going on uh one starts to realize that these systems are all there and which is what you know it's to me it's evidence of pushing let's get another |
| 1:09:19 | 550 gigatons of living carbon back on the planet restore that missing amount and actually it then starts to self-regulate and you know I think of this as a an air conditioning system that is undersized you know it's it holds temperature for a while and eventually it trips and you lose it and you look at the particularly the ocean temperature graphs from around 1970 where suddenly that additional heat starts building up in the oceans like that and you asked the question you know what happened at that point did did something trip did we |
| 1:09:59 | suddenly overwhelm the biosphere's OWN regulating capability I'll raise the question well I think I think it's very interesting and it it constantly leads me with all these experiments we're talking about so where we can mimic biology and nurse biology back into life and follow systems that work with Biology we're probably on Far safer Grand then we are doing things that biology couldn't possibly do so adding particles very high up just dumping them in there tricky finding ways of them coming up off the |
| 1:10:35 | surface as they would do in nature probably a lot safer um FC Brazilian rainforests regulate their own rainfall by triggering the things that are providing the condensation nuclei to make the cloud yeah look you just consider how much we've lost I mean the whole of Europe was forested I was reading an article just people yesterday um so between 40 and 60 percent of Iceland was covered in Forest where a friend of mine just came back today you know like three or four percent of it is left covered in Forest um the whole of the last month of North |
| 1:11:17 | America which would have been forested a much more richly planted the amount of damage that humans have been doing changes to the way the natural because it's set up is is staggering I mean actually you go back 40 000 years to the times where these massive giant sloths around and you know they got taken out very early on but we know with the experiments that have been going on in places like Yellowstone Park where they've just reintroduced the wolves how rapidly that changes the ecosystem and it's like it's looking at how the |
| 1:11:57 | the powerful the human impact is and how much damage we did early on and suddenly there's this sort of Tipping Point where it just can't take anymore um I I think those are really interesting areas to think around in looking for ways to solve our problems absolutely agrees this fungi example a trees use fungi or getting a nutrients from the minerals out of the ground fungi and microbes they do these jobs and they do these jobs since they are clear yeah it's just like your own gut we we have guts full of microbes yeah and the |
| 1:12:59 | trees actually they just have that all happening outside them around their roots but it's the same based process that when none of us are a single organism and no tree is no healthy planters and it's the same in the oceans every kind of life in these uh uh minerals and they suck their mouths out of the uh uh minerals yeah but every kind of life means every other kind of life in order to be able to do that because these things are not always happening in Partnership one way or another yeah it's a bu firms are you have different kinds |
| 1:13:35 | of bacteria and these pure firms even then yeah by the way I saw something recently suggesting that um we're not as uh that uh eukaryotes are not a third branch of of phylum but actually part of our key and so so we're actually our key and and the the bacteria the New Kids on the Block but anyway that's besides the point and foreign pH was around about eight despite the CO2 concentration and there was some orders more than we we have today life life but life adapts to its environment and then it constantly |
| 1:14:25 | shifts that environment to be more conducive to itself so it actually builds its it's constantly reaching out colonizing and stabilizing this is a natural function of life love look was a great guy fantastic who brought this up mm-hmm yeah okay and uh what else do we have I mean um I think that's it that's anything else to to say about that I think we we've kind of said it before and if you've uh developed it a little bit further there brew and I think we can all see that that's what got us here and |
| 1:15:11 | just to think you can just change it all and nothing change is uh the key is is how we nurse this back into life bring all this stuff to Bear but always remember just a natural system we've absolutely need just just get out the way and stop messing it up just leave it alone well no we've we've gone beyond that yes this is this is husbandry this is being a a custodian it's it's nursing there's nutrient systems back into life so the key missing thing when you lose that interconnected life you lose the |
| 1:15:49 | password Pathways that those nutrients get circulated Within and you have to help those get re-established you can't just sit back and wait for it assuming we know what to do well that's why we need experiments yeah okay yeah could it be that nature has decided it's time to get rid of us and there's a few things you know we have a place in nature and our place in nature we are the distribution and we might be trying to do it the question is is nature more ingenious than we are and covid and all the many many variants |
| 1:16:29 | that are being produced our Nature's way of getting rid of us no we're part of nature we can be the solution to absolutely function now our function we're fulfilling our function most is disbursement that's why you've got you know bozos and Branson and these other bozos as soon as they've got the money they try to get out into space um it's it's absolutely natural it does massive massive numbers and the failure rate is spectacularly large so you think of you know Coral polyps |
| 1:17:06 | you know one in a billion like for perform another another Reef on the other side of the Pacific Ocean um so it is with the with life over don't forget there are more stars out there than there are grains of sand on this planet um yeah just to turn the size of numbers sometimes you know what we're up against our chances to success but if you know you've got a better chance of succeeding it hmm France says the best chemists are actually microbes absolutely well they they conduct more experiments than any of us yes |
| 1:17:51 | and very fast their mutations are nearly infinite they don't bother with budgets do they laughs either low cost okay um and any cop 27 news or anything the little bits that I've seen are rather depressing I saw your email to say it's as if the misery couldn't get any worse [Music] yeah well yeah yeah too so sent an email out saying sorry for not not properly contributing to the discussion at the moment something is different this time people are openly discussing the preposterousness of 1.5 degrees C and |
| 1:18:42 | admitting that the climate disasters are occurring at least 30 years ahead of the ipcc reactions so there are at least appears that a lot of people walking around saying hang on a man we've got this wrong so that may be positive if we stopped admitting carbon or if we found ways of reducing it there's 50 times more in the oceans than there is in the atmosphere so it'll just come bubbling back up again um well you're getting an office with partial pressure as it reduces shortly didn't come up here a little bit yeah |
| 1:19:17 | but there's an awful lot there uh that will want to come back yeah absolutely we have got methods for sequestering that in the deep ocean and life uses carbonate doesn't it want to but CO2 dissolves in water there's a lot of carbon there okay so the the partial pressure changes and bicarbonate turns into isn't it but if there's plenty of nutrients isn't won't that get eaten up at the Surface by phytoplankton yes but they're they're still retaining the carbon yeah exactly that's what we want we want |
| 1:19:57 | them to retain the carbon you're going to come back as carbon dioxide there is a critical difference than carbon the active carbon the carbon that's got living things mounted on it is the self-regulating part of this whole thing yeah and we've just got just half the amount we should have so what are the best science at the moment 550 gigatons of living Carbon on the planet and a pretty fair agreement that we've reduced it by at least half probably more than that 550 gigatons of carbon new with things living on it so we've |
| 1:20:38 | got 1100 Giga transfer that 550 Giga tons of carbon pulls down enough CO2 to allow you to uh get pretty much back where you need to be with a huge allowance for off gassing from the oceans and a feral Alliance for the emissions that we're committed to at the moment so I I'm looking for simple figures simple stories we can tell people simple numbers you can grab like the 350. |
| 1:21:02 | org idea but actually restore the life double the life away you go my concern is that their peers falling onwards Stephen had written this morning uh we need a basic seminar for every human being about the existence of Henry's law that what we have in the oceans already is in equilibrium with the atmosphere and when you've stopped emitting it's going to continue to emerge and that stuff you have to believe in something and that's one of the things I learned in year one chemistry which I happen to have held on to |
| 1:21:51 | yeah um Michael Mann and many others seem to have com overridden that with their computer models computer models are driving us uh to Extinction here it seems to be competition to who's got the science seems to be driven by who's got the best model and complete ignorance of who's got the right data yes excuse me I've said enough about this for the day thank you very much thank you all models are wrong only some of them are useful hmm yeah it's I mean we we have Maths for a reason it's it's useful for simple |
| 1:22:43 | things like Building Bridges and things like that but to modeled a whole earth and all its biology uh is a bit much well something to move towards to measure total amount of life on the planet very very useful and indeed um I mean I'm much involved with with Bob Bishop the International Center simulation and that objective to build the most advanced modeling system computer model of the whole earth system that there is but I mean the objective there is to bring everything into it agricultural Financial models population |
| 1:23:24 | all the climate models oceanographic gather all that data um key thing to that is to be able to pick up changes very very quickly to measure what you're doing most importantly as opposed to be so concerned about really looking forward and to link the silos yeah suicides exactly break those but I mean you know one of the things that we have seen over the last 30 years is the projections that I've made and actually seeing the observational science on observational science is really really useful to us where you can start following trends |
| 1:24:08 | as long as you admit what you see yeah that's mainly fact mainly fact did you say well yes what you see the observational Sciences it's a lot safer ground than the models position yeah yes and if uh if ya Tower is saying people are admitting that uh it's not going to happen then uh there's some sign that that's that we're not living in a fantasy quite so much did you listen to his presentation at the cop of the uh yeah so tell the truth thing but not all his work on mirrors and the experiments they've been doing |
| 1:24:51 | we're putting mirrors in fields in different places and on roots and some quite extraordinary cooling results that he's talking about is supposition that it doesn't have any effect on Aviation Pilots I think that would be it would be very disconcerting to me in aviation and have these flashing things hitting you in the eyes all the time well how different is that to a whole load of solar panels which would be reflecting like that everywhere because they mainly absorb and they're mainly dark colored a mirror reflects 99 |
| 1:25:30 | percent and in One Direction there's two Reflections from uh glass roofs of big factories and I I the The Flash is all over quickly um but you you do when you're flying on sunny days you will you will see these yeah flying over greenhouses vast areas of greenhouses and El Maria and places like that and with the angle of incidents is fairly low you're going to get near total reflection yep the thing that worries me most about the the mirrors is that sometimes you might want to turn them off and there's an |
| 1:26:09 | awful lot of work to to to remove them I mean let's say that you've got sunny days in Winter and it's bloody cold and you you'd rather let uh rather have a bit of sunshine the thing about Marine Cloud brightening which is doing exactly the same job is that you want to click one Mouse and they they stop they stop spraying and yeah they've all gone in a few days it it it's the the rapid short life that is is is the really key to it um and the work of of putting them out and taking them back in again for the I |
| 1:26:49 | think he's talking about two percent of the Earth's area that's a hell of a big area uh I know he's using very very light glass he's also you've got to worry about it keeping it clean well stick it all on a hinge and just be able to yeah but that's a lot of hinges and a lot of yeah yeah um kind of actuators yeah they are abundant and self-cleaning and free um clouds as you say clouds are abundant self-cleaning and free and the the cost of generating the Cloud condensation nuclei as opposed to their radiative effect |
| 1:27:38 | is is one to about 8 000 wasn't it uh no the the first number you want to calculate is how much energy do you need to make the initial condensation nucleus and it's that's its surface tension times its surface area okay then the next thing you can do is uh there's going to be a drop of a cloud drop growing on top of that how much thermal energy does that reflect and that depends on its projected area and its diameter squared uh you know so you can calculate only about eight percent gets back scattered |
| 1:28:19 | and the efficiency of making the original condensation nucleus isn't very high but when you do that ratio of energy reflected to energy to make the drop it's billions it's incredibly hard I don't know anything that's got such a big energy ratio that's right yeah and it's all all done with with natural turbulence it doesn't last as long as a mirror but if it lasts even you can never make another one yeah it's it's bloody good each but each boat is when it's worked full power is producing 10 to the 17. |
| 1:28:59 | little mirrors per second per second yeah it's projected at the moment Stephen sorry second are you following the route to Rum race for Mala to Guadalupe boiling falling racing boats so yeah uh well we we want to use um hydrofoils which are now the required things for the America's Cup and they can generate energy as well as let you have a very very low drag uh if you have the hydrofolds flapping uh like that on the opposite phases at the stern you can generate all the energy that you you need to make the make the drops so the |
| 1:29:46 | energy is all coming from the wind okay so that you've you've got some hydraulic Rams and that's right yeah it falls up and down and you're you're using that to turn it down yeah so we call it Flappy uh Flappy hackers uh has anybody tried using that in the racing yacht yet uh they retract them if they don't want them so they are able to move yeah yeah but they need they need a lot of energy you can't sell these boats you can't steer them you know they're all driven electrically I have the computer you're |
| 1:30:19 | not allowed to have any Electronics on an America's Cup it's all got to be done it's all American I'm America's Cup yachtsman right I've done it I'm in there I'm connected to this it's all electric um on these boats you generate the bar maybe but um and on these um individual ocean racing boats single-handers again it's all electric you can't steer them you can't hang on there for 24 hours it's you'd be exhausted after half an hour trying to steal the thing but um so |
| 1:30:49 | they're interested in power generation and actually um if you've got if you've got a design for using one of those foils to start generating power I think this voice would be very interested right well we're regenerating the the peak the maximum part for full chat is 300 kilowatts wow I I did try and uh get um the America's Cup people interested in in this but they were too busy um all right when an opportunity comes my way I'll I'll put the word in the right spot the drawings are the two I've got the 2D |
| 1:31:29 | drawings of the pretty nearly complete right down to bearings and seals and split pins uh I do want to make a solid model of them but unfortunately uh being able to draw on a drawing board is exactly what you do not want to have if you're going to be doing solid modeling and I need someone much much younger than me who has never used a drawing board to to do this I I've got a very elaborate solid model of software and I'm just running it very very hard to undo everything that I've learned so far so everything |
| 1:32:03 | is in in 2D very nice dimensions and tolerances but it's still just uh the way it would have been done in 1950. it's the idea and and the the resources that are going into developing these Yachts is just freaking phenomenal five million quid yeah yeah answer a lot more they're going to be organized around the world uh spray vessel foiling vessel race remember autonomous vessel race wouldn't it autonomous that's been done by the Atlantic yeah okay Stephen it's the uh is the hydraulic pressure |
| 1:32:44 | um the um you know the ram effect enough to provide the pressure you need for the originalization uh we need 80 bar to to do the um to make the aerosol and most of the Hydraulics are 350 bar so we have to step the pressure down and we do that by squeezing a rubber tube with salt water inside and hydraulic oil outside so you make a pressure exchanger which will turn you from 350 bar down to 80 bar and then we use the 80 bar oil to squeeze 80 bar water yeah the the the postal elaborate feature is the well we start off with |
| 1:33:30 | sterilizing the sea water and we've got four separate ways of doing that uh and then we um squeeze the rubber tube and we can backflash all the filters and we could black flash all the way further to making the the spray Sony energy extraction using hydrofiles has to be an approach that is somehow harvesting energy a different way and not just the direction the energy is coming from the wind that's right um and that's making with hydrophobs flap I mean I'll have to persuade the America's Cup types and the racing boys |
| 1:34:11 | that you're not slowing the boat down by taking that energy out to to you know this whole equation it's all the questions um you are slowing it down otherwise you'd have perpetual motion yeah but there's this there's a stabilization effect and you're you're you've constantly got to be pushing back against the mass being pushed over to the side so you're you're using oils for leverage the control for the pitch is also doing all your Rail and and uh heal and India also pitch stabilization that's all all |
| 1:34:47 | there but free um by pitch control yeah the Air Force use about six degrees of pitch change or generation they can take up to 20 degrees uh for bad weather and things like that and it's the the the the Mars are designed for a category five hurricane um but the ships can move fast enough to get away from all the Hurricanes uh and they probably are reducing them anyway you you don't need very many to to moderate the hurricanes um but we could we could run away from them easily well I love the idea if you can chat up |
| 1:35:27 | your yachting friends please do and I will show them what we what it looks like yeah we have an opportunity for a discussion at some point I know a few here in Australia too it's it's worth talking about actually that that could get people excited and by default uh tested I mean the vessels are exciting in their own in their own right yeah well I want to build a small one to learn all the mistakes about hydrofoils uh on the cheap and we want something that will carry three or four people and be just a |
| 1:36:00 | seven meter long uh thing and I've got the drawing for that as well the most latest drawing and a little bit of description about it I'll give it to my friend Toby Hodges who's one of the lead journalists for yachting World okay let's see if you'd like to put an article in right uh I'm changing the design the the most recent complete design used a a fuselage with a stressed skin like the Spitfire and the the difference is that a ship Hull has a fairly well distributed pressure loading on the outside of the |
| 1:36:41 | hull whereas hydrofoil has a very very high loading at a few points and I found that but going into the the the stressed skin and then coming out of it again was really quite quite tricky so what I've got now is is a space frame and it's the difference between a hurricane and a Spitfire the the hurricane had a steel war and trust with very light wood that was giving you the nice pretty shape outside of it but all the strength was in this steel truss and the Spitfire that the strength in the skin and the mosquito has what we have now |
| 1:37:20 | for the big Yachts that they had a Balsa would call and birch plywood on the outside of the Baltimore now what we've got now is carbon fiber skin and then there'll be a firm separating two lots of fiber skin and that that's the way for the really ultimate performance so I'm too as it were airplane Generations prior to that but the strip the space frame allows you to do lots and lots of changes uh and make mistakes and correct them easily whereas if you have a break in a carbon fiber Hull that's it you the whole thing |
| 1:37:59 | is is gone so I think the right one to start with is the hurricane frame later on we can go to much lighter uh ones with this this robust because I mean these latest racing Yachts which are built to the Limit but they're built very strong they're built for single-handed around the world on foils yeah about 70 of them got bust because the foils ran into Telegraph poles and logs and other bits and pieces um and a lot of them those that didn't some of them had delamination problems as well just because the stress system |
| 1:38:34 | strains were so colossal but but but they are designed very very very narrow uh safety factors in fact if you had an America's Cup uh yacht that was suddenly broke up into a pile of useless junk after 27 minutes of operation that would win the 25 minute minute race we've got to make stuff that lasts for 25 years not minutes exactly all right and so but we can do that and the trouble is that it's heavy and what you need to do is to design it so it hasn't got any bits that aren't stressed to the |
| 1:39:11 | safe safe amount uh and I'm working with a a a very nice aluminum alloy which is claiming really quite good fatigue uh so I'm using the hurricane space frame but with a modern aluminum alloy I'll tell you next week um let me know because I've seen a host of Alloys all of which at least with aluminum uh tend to work hardened terribly quickly so I'd be interested for marine applications by the way bro um there was a uh you mentioned this this problem of hydrofoil collisions we've actually found an architecture or |
| 1:39:59 | an approach to address those collisions yeah it involves some active uh sensing and uh you know it was a startup company we were looking at doing in Silicon Valley um but it's the the technology is outlined and if you can find people interested in eliminating the hydrofoil Collision problem um you know I think it would take a few million to do it but we can outline the research program I would have thought you could do it with a sonar uh yeah combination ordinary depths uh sonar system and just point it horizontally |
| 1:40:37 | yeah it just hasn't been done and um so I think there's a combination of sonar and lidar that could be highly feasible the Orca group are producing a commercial unit like that which has a top unit on your Mast which is is looking forward it's using uh and visual um and it's linked to a really cracking navigational system you can actually download awkward onto your ordinary laptop and or onto your onto your phone um for the for the base unit which is a fantastic navigational tool I think the key question as well that |
| 1:41:11 | Orca system is going to see it completely submers log at night that um may not be visible yeah you probably need something underneath firing forward too exactly so that's uh anyway that's a solvable problem that has not been solved yeah it can be a problem yeah our friends sarcastic if it's unmanned of course you can there is an acceptable Collision rate which is is but we are your best economy when you have a certain fraction on the losses right and then if we just need to make a hydrophones a lot safer so it becomes |
| 1:41:52 | practical transport wise but unmanned uh certainly um you've got different uh safety ratings I agree guys did you want to say something oh ground's gone sorry keep going sorry these are the sort of technologies that should be developed rather than firing rockets in this space but if if we if we if there's any chance of getting a race up through I propose it should be called The Salted cup okay yeah um if if everyone else is thinking what I'm thinking apart from we're 10 minutes over time it seems like quite an |
| 1:42:29 | opportunity to have a journalist uh your journalist friend um Brew uh do an article on uh Steven's Marine Cloud brightening ideas would be fascinated to uh yeah do an article about that and it would be a good way coverage um and and with a lot of very wealthy people and we need to structure it so you know think about how what you could do to offset your carbon footprint of doing X or Y um right I think we should we should highlight this gain factor of a billion to one uh you know because it's like uh that's |
| 1:43:06 | something that will appeal to capitalists right yeah say well if you just look at the capitalism of energy of nature it's it's energy and um you know a billion to one return ratio is uh something we might talk about in terms of how to fix the planet and I think that kind of thing could go a long way too appealing yeah yes that would appeal um I'm done folks um um I think we're all done actually and I look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks okay thanks thanks everybody friends did you want to talk to me yes |
| 1:43:45 | according to Mr okay uh okay um did you uh hear back from her and no I I think right |