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| 00:00 | there we go yeah right yeah everybody knows i think that's it so welcome everybody um and yes um uh bhaskar do you mind uh just saying a few words about yourself please uh yeah i'm not actually a scientist i mean a businessman i've been working on this solution to water pollution and climate change of growing diet and algae in natural water bodies including oceans sorry i can't hear very well so you're growing diatom algae in uh what's that uh large water bodies large water body yep yet and uh ocean in the ocean |
| 00:40 | yeah yeah the specific product called the new algae has been invented specifically to grow diatomal and not any other algae because we believe that you know dials are the best type of algae in nature so you've got a new product called new algae and it grows diatoms only uh it's for enhancing diatom growth okay and sorry did you say that you're working for a university or a company it's a private business it's a private business right company okay great i have what you know first generation and entrepreneurs sorry |
| 01:22 | say that last thing again peter and i are both the first generation entrepreneur okay you're an entrepreneur yeah yeah great okay thank you very much okay um it's interesting i used to um i was doing some work with um clearwater carbon capture they're called and uh some others who were looking at putting uh nutrients into encourage growth of diatoms not actually putting algae in but just the looking at putting a mix of particular you know iron containing but also other you know nutrients needed for encouraging dieting great do you mind |
| 02:01 | saying a few words about yourself dan because uh i think a lot of this crowd is new and they haven't met you sure um well i'm um i'm working full-time in a totally unrelated job i've got kids i'm very busy with that but i was i was an environmental technology msc student at imperial um in 2012 and uh did a year sort of doing research into biofuels and all sorts of uh and how did you come to hear about i i unsold aerosol then dan well initially i was involved uh more with um arctic methane emergency |
| 02:42 | group so john nixon's uh group which i it was basically through my my my thesis is i found out about the jet stream meandering and all that melting of the the um the ice effect and jet stream so i got involved in ameg and then through that um i probably through a google group i found out about the event that was happening down in london in in um september it must have been yeah that's right and then renault came and spoke didn't they and then you were involved with our restore our climate group exactly and then i got involved in |
| 03:16 | different aspects including getting a promo video done and um also some of the fundraising that's great thank you very much doug thank you um and um let's see who else there's a daniel i don't think i've seen yeah let me let me introduce let me introduce daniel t okay thank you um daniel is uh he's just finished his uh uh second year of um maths no engineering sorry and he's in in cambridge and he's our summer intern who's um looking at um stuff to do with ice thickening ice um one another in the arctic uh |
| 04:02 | so last week or maybe it was two weeks ago i lose track of time we call with sev and with um peter bottoms looking at stuff to do with ice volcanoes and other things um so look daniel do you want to say a word or two about yourself sure thanks you um yeah as hugh said i've just finished my second year of engineering um i'm actually thinking about going into electronics or information engineering but i i also have an interest in in climate engineering so i've just started working on this project a few weeks ago |
| 04:42 | and um i've been spending most of my time really looking at ice volcanoes and doing some modeling there i actually have a couple slides on that but perhaps i can i can show them to you all later yeah good idea okay thanks so we'll put an agenda together thank you very much daniel okay and uh sean does how many people know sean um i think you joined once before actually sean yeah um so i think every everybody else has has uh introduced themselves at some point so great so let's do ourselves an agenda we try and get these these |
| 05:21 | meetings done in an hour uh 90 minutes hour and a half so uh so let's um oh gosh you're going to see all the all the stuff so here you go you can see you can see this one and agenda right so what do we want to talk about today i tell you there's something i'd like to talk about i'd like to i know i asked sev this and he said send everybody the link so i've been some of you will know that i've been producing a presentation there's one particular slide i would like everybody to see |
| 05:58 | which is the correlation between chlorophyll and clouds so um so for this clive um uh chlorophyll uh clouds slice that's interesting clay yeah yeah so let's just i don't think i i'll remember that that's that's me um yeah um because daniel will do we'll say something about um uh his work on ice volcanoes he's also got some questions he'd like the uh the group to um comment on about um uh the advantages or disadvantages of breaking up thin ice um to try and expose more water to try |
| 06:48 | and create more ice so yes so yeah and we can power it um on that first topic i have a slide maybe people have seen relating global temperature and marine biomass that's a beautiful straight line but it's not so beautiful the the implications and that might go with the first bullet item either after or before uh sorry what was what was it showing marine biomass versus the temperature okay temperature okay yeah maybe that's your first line yeah i think um we might like to talk for a bit about the social implications of the |
| 07:31 | canadian heat dome i think that's a tipping point for society okay i agree even for australia what was that even even for australians it was hot right uh it would would have been hot it would have been hot even if it happened in yeah that's cold for them right now isn't it yeah yeah yeah so it did strike me that that uh sev is the one who brought up the heat though that's that struck me well i was the one who lost his house to one of the first wildfire major wildfires back in 83. |
| 08:18 | wow yeah okay so close to your heart um so maybe it had a social implication for you when you lost your house you've been working on climate sessions ever since then yes and maybe that's not quite not really so funny actually so um okay anything else for anyone um maybe just a general report from uh the ccrc on how things are going uh very good so i was thinking myself yeah maybe uh maybe that would be good thing for sean to do and sean's got to uh he's only got another half an hour okay maybe that should be first then that'd |
| 08:57 | be good if if sean could say something about that yeah just just me just minions yes anything anything whatever oh dear me domestic issues my wife's trying to take care of me actually and i'm not being not being very appreciative uh so um maybe i'll go and sort it out later we don't we don't want stress in meetings do we i'll get you to talk amongst yourselves a little a little stress okay yeah anything else then she thinks it's a hobby that keeps me rather too busy actually yeah what else folks i'm also worried |
| 09:39 | that um some countries are about to let their guard down on on covert and we a lot of our research efforts may be slowed down by by unwise decisions i don't know that's not really something we can do much about but i'd like to just flag it as as a as a complicating factor in our ongoing work um well i don't think let's stop now gender right yeah i think let's keep going with this um i mean i'd like to say that uh apparently there's news that that asian countries five asian countries |
| 10:20 | including japan are planning 600 new coal-fired power stations so we do rather need cooling yeah all this about taking co2 out of the atmosphere i mean to me it's like accelerating in a porsche and saying well we're heading towards a brick wall so let's stick our finger out out the window so we can slow ourselves down a bit no it's it's it's just perverse um so um all right so let's start with um and by the way uh any any chat i'm unlikely to see i'm gonna read that um let's start with uh sean then please |
| 10:56 | okay it is fantastic to be with you all uh really good from all across the globe i see brian in from australia and brian operating on a very strange timetable for himself and of course uh the us and the uk look i'm really good to be here uh things with center for climate repair going very well we're in uh ramp up mode so we have raised some money uh and now we're in the process of hiring and getting some people on board to actually do some real work so in terms of projects that we've got ongoing |
| 11:33 | um we have a live project at the moment um working on a working with carbon engineering this is a public publicly known uh project working with carbon engineering and in particular on their calciner uh you'd be aware that at the moment if you if you follow this space that carbon engineering burn methane in the process of their calciner which on the face of itself oh dear what's going on here don't worry they they do have a still a net uh negative carbon dioxide uh sort of footprint if they were to actually put the carbon dioxide that |
| 12:12 | they then form underground but just to clarify this is for direct air capture i think yeah for carbon they both do dioxide air capture but carbon has got a particular technology but so their approach is to use a bag of bits that is all they're all tried and tested components and therefore got scale already supply chain so that's sort of a key hallmark but we're in the process not you and myself two other colleagues from the university are helping carbon engineering look at alternatives to burning methane as the |
| 12:49 | heat source for a fluidized bed and that's either using hydrogen as one option or actually perhaps even direct uh electrically heated uh bed i think the current work is looking at uh hydrogen as a vector but it's got a different density different heat capacity different characteristics and therefore is a review of that so we were doing that project at the moment in the design phase if that then is approved by the same thunder which is the uk government we will then be looking at a pilot plant demonstration in the united kingdom |
| 13:19 | with basically the uh the commissioning of all the contracting and stuff like that happening in spring 2022. um so there's a five million pound project if it gets approved um we're through the first stage gate it's you know it's uh it's going to be reviewed by the government now um that's one live budget yes sev's got his hand up yep sure the question has anyone thought of using plasma torches as the the heating element um not that i'm aware of sev um i mean we should throw that into the mix |
| 13:53 | i know that the i know that the uh the current thinking behind carbon engineering is trying to use um methods that are sort of fairly standard in the industry so that it's on the supply side so i don't know whether that's where that fits sev uh there is a sort of there is the philosophy there which i you know i subscribe to it's not the only one of course but that is a hallmark of their approach any other questions well i'm most interested in hearing about cooling because um you can do it yeah |
| 14:25 | yeah so um in terms of on the cooling front uh hugh is going to be uh supervising various projects uh we've got a phd um who's just been we're in the process of going through the paperwork but we've interviewed uh offered a place accepted uh he's out of uh exeter university he's just finished his master's there and going to be starting a phd looking at the modeling on marine cloud brightening uh that's starting in september alongside uh this guy we've got a fourth year engineering uh |
| 14:57 | undergraduate who's going to be doing some experimental work as well looking at droplet formation that's all on marine cloud brightening and then another phd which is very likely to happen uh is it's not on cooling uh clive but it's on uh one of the more controversial topics which is actually uh orange and iron fertilization but actually doing some ocean modeling and then there's a sort of a uk research code uh which is going to be adapted for that and that's in collaboration with uea uh absolutely delighted that it isn't |
| 15:32 | just the same old folks actually interested in this space especially uae is the university of east anglia it's one of the centers of the tin tindal uh uh research institute but it's really fantastic that you know there are there's an appetite clive which i'm very excited about which is just wanting to look at options and you know get on with some research and and develop these rather than just being in the oh that's too controversial we're not in the space of in the in the space of we're going to |
| 16:08 | recommend these things are deployed here and now but we've got to get on with some work testing and testing you can use the word validate i think it's you know the positioning is important testing to see actually what what the effects positive and negative are so that one can then make really informed decisions and that's what we're lacking at the moment is data uh with sort of a really strong evidence base uh and that can go both ways of course in terms of decision making but clearly we wouldn't be doing the research if we |
| 16:36 | didn't think it had significant potential otherwise we've got better things to do all right anyway so that's where we are okay what's the name of that person doing that research there's a lot the academic there what's the full name hugh you're muted her name is i i i'm going to have to put it in the chat that's all right that's fine that's okay we all know her and um and she's just fantastic so she is um one of the uh one of the uk's top ocean ocean modeling experts so the the eq |
| 17:24 | the equilibrium between ocean methane and co2 and nitrous oxide and atmospheric methane co2 and nitrous oxide is her expertise yeah okay that's that's all very interesting because the uae seemed to seem to us to be dead against you know any even thought of you know ocean fertilization this is why i was absolutely over the moon to say that they're interested in looking at the modeling thereof even if it's not actually we're going to do experiments but let's go and have some rational objective |
| 17:55 | modeling exercises being done uh so that we can then just you know it's i think the framing climb is really important in terms of how we get people on board it's to be you know let's ask the questions and rather than being forceful with answers before we actually have the data fair enough okay just a quick question on you're saying about there's an appetite for the um the research well within i think there's a growing appetite there's clearly daniel in my view there are those who actually would |
| 18:24 | rather not see research being undertaken in certain quarters but i think that's just a case of look we just need to uh be a be academic about it and say actually an inquiring mind is a healthy mind and it's a healthy thing what scares me most daniel is if we don't do the research and then things get really out of control then there could be some i don't know rogue states rogue nations road and rogue entities that just decide to go and give something a go at scale without having done the thinking about the present concept and |
| 18:56 | that scares me more than actually let's go and have our time and let's go and work hard at doing doing research right now so we can actually possibly make and this is the framing possibly make an informed decision as to what not to do all right that's just you know we've got to ask these questions so is is the uk current government which some would actually probably regard as a rogue state in the way they're letting the the cases of covid spread um but uh would you say they're amenable um or is it just within |
| 19:27 | the academic community you're talking about that daniel my my um reading is that there isn't an appetite at the moment for government funding of certain projects all right but that but it's more about the academic community actually i think that great if you start with the academics then they're not the uk government isn't the only source of funding it's just that look let's go and make sure that we've got licenses to go and do it whatever it is whatever's necessary and maybe not even in the uk and let's |
| 19:56 | go and look at where the right places to do experiments are and enlist the the appropriate people to see whether they're on board or not but i think it's a big it's a it's a global discussion global community okay thanks so so it's einstein aristotle sure i'm sorry john i missed that i beg your pardon so i haven't had those discussions john um but you know in terms of just looking at in all of these approaches john i think are really worthy of exploration i really do you know as long as they're framed |
| 20:39 | appropriately um to say look this is the type this is the area we want to engage on and i think as long as we frame it as someone's had this idea we want to go and test to see whether it's good bad indifferent and if it's bad we're certainly not going to do it if it's indifferent to be a waste of money and if it's good actually what are the measures in place that would be necessary to sort of make sure that it's done in a safe manner i think the framing for all of these things we as a community who want to do the |
| 21:04 | research have got to sort of try and get our messaging delica it's delicate messaging uh get it right i think people need to realize that it's it's dire it's going to be really horrible um and and it's and it's very difficult to come back and so this this research needs to be done uh i think i think that this is um the thing that our center for climate repair is really drawing attention to um this is this is it's not going to be a walk in the park and so that's why what sean is is quite rightly saying is that there is |
| 21:52 | a there is a change in the mood that um the fact that we we can exist and be and people aren't shooting us down is a really it couldn't have happened five years ago i don't think and now it can happen yeah but okay but but yeah i can't i can't stress strongly enough the um the how the framing we as a community and and you know we are i think we are doing you know we're clearly we're all together because we all care tonight for example or this afternoon wherever you are but it's really important that we are |
| 22:27 | that we posit this as a we want to understand these the these these sorts of approaches before there are any before anyone really goes and makes big decisions and that's what because i'm not disagreeing with you at all sean on on that um i've got a question yep yeah so um with regards to the iron fertilization which of course is a very interesting approach um what are what approaches of iron fertilization are they going to be considering are you going to be considering um that's that that's an open question |
| 23:04 | at this point peter because um we've only just in the last couple of days um had this opportunity to um to take on a phd student um i don't know sean have you got any anything else you want to well we and you know we are in you know strong discussions with the goa institute of india and there they have an idea which is uh using iron flakes so um using tailings in a husk and which they bake and the husk itself therefore uh enables the iron to remain buoyant to remain in the surface waters for much longer |
| 23:42 | and that's something that they would like to explore peter so that's just one idea um yeah but you know you know we've got to go and explore this um in earnest we really do but modeling uh we also want to undertake um i mean look i want to undertake a whole bunch more on uh engagement with uh with with relevant communities and societies about the public about the acceptability of some of these sorts of approaches but i'd like to do it in a much broader way than i've certainly been exposed to |
| 24:14 | in terms of the literature that i've been familiar with so that's engaging for example with communities who are going to be most affected by rising sea levels and and climate change and who are least able to adapt to it so i'm thinking about where is the public engagement research that's been done not by us but actually within those countries in the likes of low-lying countries low-lying cities in india i've just peter i'm not familiar with the with literature if it's out there that's done really |
| 24:43 | extensive work saying this is what's coming down the tracks hence clive your language um and actually therefore what are the options that we might want to need that we should possibly explore to try and ameliorate the effects of climate change whilst we get our house in order regarding emissions reductions so this this whole area of public engagement research so if i run if i look at the um the the work that was done um which cannibalized the scopex experiment did i see all the voices from the southern hemisphere did i see the voices |
| 25:15 | from the low-lying states the cities that are going to be most affected by the uh by the effects of climate change i didn't hear any of that and i did trying to read around well this is the kind of work that i think we need to really embark upon which is non-scientific i grant you clive but it's part of what the center for climate repair are trying to try to raise funds for at the moment and i also feel that that uh public engagement research should possibly done be done not by people in the northern hemisphere |
| 25:43 | but should be done by people in those countries for those communities in other words it's who does the research i think is also important for legitimacy um and therefore that's something that we would like to support raise money for and then actually unlock that potential for that kind of work within those countries because i think that's what's been you know one of the aspects that's been missing in this whole field and i'm excited about it i really am because i think it could actually unlock |
| 26:10 | uh a number of the issues that we have in the two found regarding progressive research right yeah i mean i watched um the uh that presentation the cambridge presentation with brian's excellent presentation and when natalie um on nature based and i saw that one um from uh the from the goa guy um and brian was saying brian could say something now i mean the the stratification the rapid warming is causing stratification of the ocean and this is what has caused this is what caused it looks like a good three of the major mass |
| 26:46 | extinctions in you know back in geological time the n permian for example you know um the ocean the ocean becomes deoxygenated and you and you lose you know 95 percent of your species or whatever it is and there's brian showed massive areas of kelp forest all disappeared i mean this is this is not good no and actually brian's working with local communities as well and i think this is really really valuable in terms of these voices to the fore as well do you want to say anything about this brian uh just a little bit uh regarding your |
| 27:19 | technical questions of where to do this this research there's a substantial criticism you know in the northern hemisphere if you add iron and it's not necessarily iron limited you're drawing down a lot of macronutrients and the criticism is that the downstream ecosystems will actually be starved out of macronutrients but um you know goa is quite active in the southern ocean as well i think there's a key opportunity to research and that is that when you add iron um in certain portions of the uh southern |
| 27:49 | ocean just perhaps south of the polar fronts you're actually the water's already been up well you have high nutrient and low chlorophyll and there if you're adding iron there's some evidence that you're actually able to draw down these nutrients and grow plankton before those nutrients are subducted and so they're and they're not actually going to a downstream ecosystem on the surface and so there's a possibility to do some good in the southern ocean particularly where iron is clearly a |
| 28:24 | limiting nutrient so that's one of the areas that goa i think has some expertise based on my visit there last time and would be a potential area for for fruitful research especially looking at downstream ecosystems good brian that's very helpful indeed i mean i know that dave is keen to ex you know keen to uh interrogate the opportunities uh you know in different oceans but most importantly to do so uh with foresight regarding modeling and therefore what the where would be the right places to really try first and if your advice |
| 28:59 | is to look at the southern ocean that is one of the spaces that dave has highlighted is something that really we should be doing but we're going to preempt all of this with some additional modelling work through this with the with the phd student and somebody else joining us as a postdoc as well modeling has to come first well actually what needs to really come versus public engagement and then modeling and then any field trials i think what i'm trying to do sorry go ahead brian yeah along those lines the modeling of the subduction on |
| 29:28 | the macronutrients is a key question on the subpolar front and then the ultimate fate of those nutrients would be important to model as well yeah yeah yeah an interesting thing you know we stole russ george from london he's here in in california right now and he pointed out to me the other day that um you know he and victor smedec and others always do the fertilization in an eddy and um and eddie obviously is either a downwelling eddie or an upwelling and it's they do it in a downwelling and all of a sudden the light went on |
| 30:05 | that if you're doing fertilization in a down rolling eddy then you're pretty much guaranteed that that those biocarbons are going down the drain which is pretty interesting i don't know how you model that brian do you want to comment on the downstream ecosystems effect um yes well in some places i mean part of the criticism in the northern hemisphere deployments is that your um you add some iron and it course draws down the nitrate and the phosphate which would otherwise impinge upon let's say british columbia or |
| 30:40 | england so there is a significant effect there however you know phil i think peter has a point that uh if you're it's nice that the the downwelling eddies are self-contained containers so that's a nice way to isolate your experiment and then secondly to the extent those macronutrients would otherwise be subducted uh then there's an opportunity to use them before they're subducted and that presents a distinct uh possibility i would say both in the subpolar fronts which are time varying and do comprise at ease |
| 31:13 | themselves and the southern ocean is particularly replete with us those yeah okay thank you brian yeah so just to go back to about the public engagement um sean i'm absolutely with you that you have to take people with you or they they have to be able to be able you know they've got to let us you know take us take us with them you could say so um but i think there's there's ways of doing that research if you if you if you don't if people don't realize what's coming down the line then of course they're going to say oh |
| 31:49 | no no we don't want any experiments done in mind but i don't want experiments done in my backyard but if you say to them look you know it's at sea level is going to rise you're going to lose your homes um in the meantime you could make quite a bit of money from extra fish you know in this area over the next 20 years so you are you up for it no i think this is really important that's just what brian's been finding too regarding like you know the restoration of oceans through kelp and things like |
| 32:16 | this it's about communities so communities being affected right now with loss of uh loss of fish for example therefore not being able to feed their families let alone actually have an income so actually think about it in the rounds there are you know effects being felt right now then there are longer term things with with rising sea levels and things like this so hence the some of these approaches uh i think do do involve as you know a discussion um and therefore look you know how do you feel about this so i think |
| 32:47 | you know i think there's quite a lot of work to do in terms of uh thinking about the restoration of the oceans as well yeah absolutely okay um anything else for anyone else before we move on um i'm just wondering whether i'm just conscious that sean has to head off you wouldn't mind if daniel was to put his thing in now because i think sean would like to hear what what people's comments are on that work i would i would well okay so frank france you've got a question did you say yes i think uh there are lots of options in |
| 33:22 | the oceans for instance in if you try to to keep oxygen uh in the ocean and do and use surface instead of oxygen for oxidation of the organic carbon which comes down from feeding with iron and other nutrients so you can keep the oxygen if you make a sapropel and sulfurides sufferize it in the in in near near those places where it is done in nature when nature does it like the humboldt uh upwelling and the penguila belling in front of africa |
| 34:26 | you have very massive organic production of this phytoplankton and there is much going down of this organic carbon as sapropel so and if you use there is used as sulfate and the surface also other than oxygen oxidation produces a basicity not necessary by oxidation and you get the organic carbon very fast as a propel into the sediment and don't use a b carbonate as a transporter in the ocean yeah that's great so we can come back to |
| 35:31 | that friends this is what we've been working on that's hence that slide there um but uh so let's let's uh thank you for that friends let's let shawn's let's let sean um and daniel speak and then because sean has to go so are you ready to uh give you a little presentation yeah let me just share my screen oh hang on a minute there you go try now oh thank you um can you see that uh yes oh hang on a minute um yes yes i can yeah nice volcanoes yeah so i've been spending a fair bit of |
| 36:25 | the past few weeks we're working on modeling for ice volcanoes and the two things in particular i've been looking at so far are modeling the freezing process of the water flowing down the slope and modeling thinking of the cold black brian runoff so yeah i have this diagram which um has kindly provided me of an ice volcano and essentially the concept is you pour water out from a nozzle in the center over an iceberg and some of the water freezes as it runs off but you get a little bit of cold brine which runs down |
| 37:01 | and um first off the freezing water thickens the ice and then the secondary effect is also that the brine that runs off is very dense and has absorbed some co2 so if it's able to sink deep enough into the ocean we hope that this would sequester some co2 as well and um so the modeling work i've been doing um you can see a graph here for the thickness of ice formed um at a few distances down the slope and i i've essentially this is quite a quite a simplistic model at the moment uh built on modeling work |
| 37:41 | done for the formation of sea ice and at the moment i'm ignoring the porosity of ice and any complications with um with brine channels for example i'm i'm working on trying trying to get it a bit better but this is this is a rough estimate of the rate of ice formation we might have and also this has allowed me to estimate the brine density that comes off it's about 1 100 kilograms per meter cubed which is quite a bit denser than seawater and of course that's that's the starting point for modeling the the sinking of |
| 38:20 | the brine runoff the the controlling parameter i'd assume would be how quickly the the um sodium chloride can diffuse out which will reduce the density and also how quickly um the the brine runoff would warm warm up and and if it warms up and homogenizes with the rest of the ocean before it sinks too far then we won't be able to get our carbon dioxide low enough to actually sequester it and there's a couple all right sure sorry is that a question uh yeah but feel free to finish first and i can ask again sure um yeah i just had one |
| 39:02 | more slide on some of some of the further questions i'm hoping to answer um over the coming weeks and um so yeah i'd love to hear more about what what any of you might have to say on this as well when you say show uh one meter downslope uh is that referring to what kind of rise over run horizontally it's the distance kind of along the slope um at the angle i'd i'm modeling the angle as quite a small a small angle here maybe five degrees or so um i've yet to kind of analyze exactly what effect the angle might have |
| 39:47 | right the isostatic rebound will generally dictate that eighty percent of the volcano is going to be the underwater portion and so the slope might be you know minimizing the slope could be attractive and i'm just curious what uh diameter you're considering with respect to this height function yeah i mean that's that's really the question i i'm also trying to answer with regard to what size we want and of course you can see that the rate of ice formation is reducing as we go further down because um the brine is |
| 40:24 | concentrating and as we go further on we have more concentrated brine and a lower freezing point so we're freezing more slowly and i think that would be the limit of the diameter does that um yeah it's been suggested several times that the rate limiting step is actually the coupling to the atmosphere and not the availability of water and so to that extent um you know the fact is with the wind turbine we're only going to be freezing water when it's windy and the windiness is going to cause a lot of turbulence |
| 40:59 | and that turbulence and i would say the heat transfer from atmosphere to water may be a dominant factor in this um and so you may want to consider the atmospheric uh melting modeling under windy conditions which is when we'll have the power to actually pump the water right yeah that's that's quite very useful that's a very useful comment thanks brian pleasure it also means you're uh it's not going to be a circular volcano it's just going to go off to one side the side the wind's blowing isn't |
| 41:32 | it well it could freeze more on the windy side and then the question is you know does it behoove us to rotate these platforms periodically uh or throw them on one side it could quickly stop if it's not rotating so there may be a benefit to having the rotation capability and happy to follow up as this modeling work progresses because it's something we've done a fair amount of work on in my system the actual direction of the flow can be changed to compensate for wind as well as the the magnitude of the flow how do you |
| 42:06 | change the direction of the flow you simply rotate the outlet of the nozzle oh you squirt it in a different direction yep don't you think the wind would still blow it back round again not if it's a big gush and most of it would be a big gush it only thins out you know some tens of meters down by which time it can't can't blow up the soap and down the other side if the volcano is flat enough and that's where the very the smaller slope the better in some ways because you'd like the minimal |
| 42:44 | infrastructure to produce the largest area of ice and so if it is fairly flat it could be that you'll have a fair amount of turbulence even down when especially downwind of the peak of the volcano i think these are fantastic uh questions and maybe um uh daniel you you can give some thought to this and maybe you should set up a chat with brian yeah yeah can i just ask the density gradient of the water um i mean i i don't know what what that is you've got two two factors there's temperature and salinity |
| 43:23 | um but the density gradient itself and daniel is it is it quite strong or not the density gradient um so if you mean of the sinking water um no i just mean of the of the water before you've added anything to it there there has to be a density gradient or is it is it very weak before i've added before you've got any grind just you know the arctic sea right um yeah the reason i'm asking is that if you've got dense fluid uh and you're adding it but it's going into a stratified layer at some point as a result of the mixing |
| 44:06 | uh you might find therefore it then intrudes it might then get to a um [Music] a neutrally boring position but clearly if it's not stratified if it's basically the density grade is very weak then the likelihood is it's going to get to the bottom because of the inflow of the arctic rivers the giant arctic rivers and the melting of sea ice which is bracket there is quite a strong salinity gradient so the top borders are more like brackish water rather than sea water it's only when you get down below about |
| 44:42 | a hundred meters that they even out to sort of normal uh uh ocean question was the density gradient not the salinity gradient but they they yeah the density is the densities are nowhere close to 1.1 grams per cc and so um we have experimental examples certainly in in the antarctic of these brine plumes dropping to the sea floor in shallower waters and we have also argo floats that will provide the density profiles at least down to 1000 meters so i think there's good evidence for export out of the photo zone and that's something that could be |
| 45:22 | validated through modeling and i think those negatively buoyant plumes could be modeled accordingly yeah they could what's the diameter of the volcanoes after a year uh about 2.4 kilometers by my back of the envelope 2.4 kilometers kilometers that's that's big so yeah the rise of a run is critical there because if you've got one or ten meters of rise then um you know and you've got 1. |
| 45:58 | 2 kilometer radius that's a very slight slope and we need to understand the lower limits of that slope yeah oh i just want to uh say hey daniel you've only been on this subject for two weeks fantastic uh thanks for thanks for taking the time to be involved with this project i mean i think that's very exciting i do yeah i agree really so as an action daniel you're gonna follow up with brian because brian's done a lot of thinking about this yeah that would be really helpful actually i'll drop my email in the chat thanks |
| 46:35 | brian is there a sort of a long-term plan with this i mean once you've done the modeling then what we've got a um a project student starting up in october um and depending a little bit on how this goes we will we'll um we may well be doing some experiments of some sort or um yeah long-term plan is not to drop this ball but to keep on um keep exploring the options great okay thank you so your any questions any other comments or questions for sean before he goes because you're already uh 20 minutes late for whatever else you |
| 47:16 | were going through no i know only one one one go ahead one remark uh it's these these brines bring also not only co2 to the uh ocean depth also oxygen and that's good yes yes there is something slightly perverse and that is when you sink the brines you're actually causing some of the deep water to be displaced towards the surface and that deep water actually contains more co2 than the surface water so you lose some co2 yeah there's likely a co2 release and that should be modeled yeah the co2 in the antarctic can come |
| 48:08 | from the uh rifts you get a lot of from the mid-ocean rifts opening up under the sea yeah yeah the question uh sev how many of these would be required to make a measurable impact on the arctic or on co2 54 000 turbines to do the whole arctic except for the channels we keep open on the pallinus 50 40. |
| 48:40 | 25 year period got it okay put that into your modeling man economic modeling 54 house definitely yeah we have a canal to build let's do it sooner than later yeah do we have a a potential rev uh funding source for that no no but we have a revenue stream so this is uh the passage to build ships for going through a canal between the ice that's the idea the coveted northwest passage finally made real and we could also start harvesting some of the bubbling methane and turn that into uh into um hydrogen and nano carbon products using i'd love to |
| 49:29 | just keep it frozen my primary objective is have a big iceberg grounded if you have you can do that because when the iceberg grounds it will it will uh freeze over those vents but there still will be some methane bubbling up through the pelinius which should be good to harvest that's true yeah is that true have you calculated what's the maximum sea temperature that is as i understand that the arctic sea is warming is there a point at which this the water is too hot no as brian says it's all the temperature |
| 50:11 | of the atmosphere which matters it really doesn't matter at all what temperature the sea is if it's minus 20 on top that's going to freeze or a portion of it right definitely and the whole point is you've got these nice ice cubes that even if you have some melting in the summer with 10 meters of ice or 20 meters of ice you've got plenty of multi-year ice so it's going to keep things cool and it's going to reflect a lot of summer sunlight into space yeah are there studies that show the |
| 50:40 | tendency of uh of cold days in the winter in the arctic i i'm guessing there are fewer and fewer but i don't i've never not been up there there they are getting fewer but they're still and will be for for the next um many decades there's still be enough cold days to get freezing and good thicketing happening that's right and furthermore subs pointed out that the wet adiabatic lapse rate ensures that you get this heat to the top of the tropopause where it can be radiated into space even if it happens to be cloudy |
| 51:17 | and so i think there's a good prospect for getting a lot of this heat transfer back into space in the winter time yeah and that's really just a way of saying that the sea water the the the ice forms it gives off heat and the heat just naturally goes up to the top of the chopper pause and just goes out to space that isn't is that right brian it's adi that's right you know the key thing is we're increasing the humidity level and that results in the convection associated with a wet adiabatic lapse |
| 51:47 | rate it could actually increase snowfall as well but the key thing is the wet adiabat is very fallow whereas a dry aviobat is steep and so that results in a convective instability which will drive heat to the top of the tropopause okay you're educating certainly educating me there brian brian but the what's the how does the the partitioning between radiation and convection well it's all convection in the lower atmosphere you've got to get above the clouds and the nice thing is you get up to the top of the troposphere |
| 52:16 | and that's where your likelihood of a cloud-free stratosphere enables the advent the the radiant transfer from the top of the cloud layer right on up into space and that's where you'll get this nice overturning and uh that should provide some very good heat transfer sorry uh brian are we saying that the number of nights number of days uh in the winter which are relatively uh cloud free in the arctic are very few is that what you're saying um i don't have the stats on that but but sev convinced me |
| 52:49 | that um the key is convection through most of the troposphere and then radiant transfer from the upper layers of the troposphere into space and then last time we had the uh comment that the cirrus clouds can be burnt away by i think i understood it that's by the heat coming up from the tropopause was that right interesting question uh i i think we need to research that further uh i don't know much about the high altitude clouds and their density and this is something that we should do some atmospheric modeling to |
| 53:27 | really characterize the radiant heat transfer in the troposphere and the uh stratosphere uh during the arctic winter i think that's very important yeah i agree great okay thank you sean i'm so grateful uh clyde thank you ever so much indeed and i look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks time a couple of weeks great see you then thanks for thank you sean being with us thank you bye bye okay so let's get back to this uh okay so clap clouds my my slide here um which is not that one it's this one |
| 54:10 | uh i was looking on the nasa website as you do um and um they have a whole lot of maps um animated and picked out it was not quite at random but many of the so this is on a monthly basis you can click play and it goes about the last last five years um but most of them really shut and they've got one that shows uh it goes through the same month of of chlorophyll and clouds and you you tend to see the same things all the time so there's this there's uh this big area in the north pacific would be here in the south pacific |
| 54:49 | this area here you know you can see them there does you only play spot the difference so you just keep comparing and you see that uh where there's where there's chlorophyll there's clouds and there isn't coral there isn't so we thought we should add that to our ocean paper i thought that was rather compelling that's great and uh you know how how to uh these areas are the reason there's no chlorophyll because virtually no iron at all hardly any um and there's you know other macronutrients |
| 55:21 | so our very very diffuse iron salt aerosol going to these areas is you know going to do something um it's going to make a little bit of chlorophyll um we don't want to overdo it we don't want to deplete those macro you know any other nutrients and if we get a little bit of chlorophyll i mean we know that the mechanism it's bms as it says here the smell of the sea which is condensation nuclei this could be a low-cost way of um you know who knows providing potentially a lot of cooling and clive to clarify here the southern |
| 55:57 | ocean is a good example of hnlc high nutrient low chlorophyll those gyres are examples of low nutrient low chlorophyll and that's where some combination of upwelling and a micronutrient supplementation could be helpful depending on the limiting nutrient so i'm happy to look at both approaches and i think this correlation with cloud cover is essential um the researchers and at caltech you know clouds are the 64 000 question because they're determining so much radiant transfer to space mm-hmm yeah but just being um |
| 56:35 | slightly uh devil's advocate here um correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation so could it be that the presence of clouds uh influencing chlorophyll i mean i'm not i know nothing about this but i just wanted to throw that in as a as a we can say they're co-variables and we can also um we have a mechanistic example with cmso and so i think it's worth you know it's worth doing some trials yeah um yeah we know but that's right the causation one way just not the other way yeah let's go |
| 57:21 | ahead peter oh i just i've heard over and over again for years and years and years the correlation between iron and met and phytoplankton and chlorophyll and clouds russ george talks about one of the problems with doing iron fertilization is the satellites can't measure the chlorophyll or the co2 because you get clouds right yeah yeah let me just put up one more slide if that's okay um so which is going to be new to nearly everybody um this is in our uh well it's not really this one it's um it's this one so if it's just one slide |
| 58:05 | and anyone that wants to look at this um presentation i put this together because andy said he's going to get some uh senior engineers um and want to hear about climate solutions so this is what franz and i have been talking about recently that um so microbes i'll just do the microbes whether rock and if you need any convincing you only have to look wonder why you brush your hair supposed to brush your teeth twice a day in morning and night um and if you if you don't brush your teeth um people with tooth decay |
| 58:38 | have you seen people with cavities that go really nice they go black it's the same i think is it the same stuff as prans as black sapropell i mean it's this black uh bacteria right microbes and if if it is methanogenic or sufficient it could be also iron sulfide right yeah okay thank you so this is what's been so wonderful for me to discover working with friends but microbes weather rock this is a good chance this is where how life began i mean rocks provide nutrients and um just like they they're having a go at |
| 59:21 | your teeth all the time that that's just ancient life and that's how it survived but in the beginning there wasn't any oxygen i'm not even sure there was any sulfate um you have to have to make energy to live you it's it's redox reaction um you have to have an oxidant and a reductant um the precious little oxidant in those days but in the very early days but there was lots of very strong reductant as there still is hydrogen in the rock um and so this is franz's point all throughout our paper |
| 59:51 | that they need to be able to weather rock and that's this thing here catechol it's a complexant so there's a silicon atom right in the middle and very good at just taking out the one taking out the atoms one at a time um and uh so you see whole terraforming going on um and we give fans give some give some examples of for example flint we think is made this way there's been a lot of uh doubt about or questions about how where does flint come from so anyway so what we're talking about here if you can |
| 1:00:22 | accept that microbes weather rock they can even weather quartz which is very difficult very tough stuff uh difficult to weather um but basalt is very it's like soap you know butter it's much easier to weather um and seamounts are uh just a second uh rhyme silly so what we're suggesting is seamounts um and so forth uh they start off with sema sea mounts and then they erode and then become what sort of um that if they could be opened up and have a compressed air lifting water up through them they're |
| 1:01:03 | going to the microbes soon move in biofilms move in and they release nutrients in the same way that they do on you know anyway that this is just more of the same basically so clive what just completely emotionally what's that what's the scale on that is that like kilometers across or hundreds of kilometers uh at least kilometers some of them are kilometers across so what deaths are we talking about well we we're suggesting try and use uh seamounts that are you know near the surface like within 50 meters |
| 1:01:41 | otherwise you have to put a lot of energy into your water your air down so go for the ones near the surface if you can and where do we find these oh they're all over the place um so okay so i have another let's see if i can before you go i have a comment on this slide clive yep and that is yeah in particular you may not actually need the bubbles if you go back to that slide yeah yeah there's plenty of geothermal heat and we've measured uh positive and negative pore pressures on the mid-atlantic ridge |
| 1:02:12 | and we have identified that the water commonly will go in the deeper areas and it's heated by the geothermal heat of the rock itself and so there's plenty of advection that occurs simply uh due to the thermal uh difference let's say at different layers of the of the rock itself and so the water ends up getting entrained on the sides and released out the top this could be accelerated through fracking i suppose um and so you know it could be that by fracking the seam out at some level um you would actually increase the |
| 1:02:49 | advection of seawater in from the sides and out the top basically due to the chimney effect yeah great okay so thanks brian so let's just um whiz down to uh this one where is it down there somewhere uh this one here so this one um yeah uh once again we're we're thank you for that and um yeah we're aware that in the ocean crust but for sure there's a lot of convection um and uh and in the ocean crust uh you get a high temperature reaction with uh per um olivine and water it makes this serpentine which is full of crevices |
| 1:03:26 | because serpentine is less dense so it gets full of crevices and you get sea water streaming through it this is the biggest aquifer on earth it stretches all around the globe of course um so um i think what what the my um uh concern would be if we're we are proposing this um to make saprobill uh as a way of sequestering carbon so this would no doubt be a little bit controversial even though it's happening already as friends pointed out off the coast of namibia and and the west coast of uh south america as well you get some |
| 1:04:06 | hydrogen sulfide being produced it's uh poisonous um but these are still the best fishing grounds in the world um it takes intense uh there's a very high productivity phytoplankton so that's why the those waters run out of oxygen so then uh but microbes just carry on they say well okay i'll just use something else then sulfate that'll do and they use sulfate to metabolize and this is what produces sapropel so uh the concern is uh if you let it this is what happens in nature it gets this is a what we call we'll call this a |
| 1:04:47 | redox scale but if you get down to this level you produce hydrogen sulfide so what we're proposing is to try and control the reason i'm saying is to control the productivity at the surface so we can just operate at this level here just at the sulfate reducing level um so uh if we if we find that um oops we find that that's that's why we want to have this way of controlling the amount coming from a c mount brian but it's a it's a very thank you for that it's a nice thought that uh even inside a sea mount |
| 1:05:21 | there could be geothermal you know there's going to be lifting yeah um now on a related note there are some challenging things that we must monitor and that is particularly the c4 oxygen off the coast of oregon as a model for south american there are plenty of times where you run into hypoxia and then eventually anoxia and fish kills and the challenge is if you're in this transition zone where the sea floor still has oxygen but not too much then we have to manage the amount of productivity above it because that marine snow coming |
| 1:05:52 | down will cut that oxygen level or reduce it further and thus we have to have active monitoring of oxygen levels and you know if you have a place that's truly an oxic already like the black sea then you can drop more carbon no problem perhaps the santa barbara channel would be similar however in off the coast of oregon or even chile when you're dealing with mild hypoxia depending on the year then you're dealing with a marginal situation and fish kills of course would have a lot of headline risk so these are the kind of challenges |
| 1:06:23 | that we might have to manage that are not directly uh you know they're they're important implications for fisheries productivity definitely friends you have something to say about that don't you you're saying that uh that actually the bottom waters would not be deprived of oxygen if if if it can be managed that's the uh reduction of surveyed stops in the polysulfide or elementary self suffer stage then no h2s is produced and you get the the sulfurized subpropel which is not easy oxidized anymore easier |
| 1:07:15 | and without uh producing edge stress so i think it should be possible to to uh use this stage what the point you're saying friends i think is that um that um where are we um that um if it is make sap repel we'll come back to sapphire then this cannot be oxidized any further so if you this is the only thing you've got sinking down but then beneath that that zone we call it the oxygen minimum zones about 500 whatever a thousand meters down but going down below that the next three thousand meters whatever it is down to the bottom |
| 1:07:59 | of the sea you're not going to deplete be depleting any ocean because your marine snow is inert it can't oxidize any further it's just just this black stuff that doesn't doesn't oxidize is that right it uh it uh can be called refractive refractive if really no uh i can't say but uh this umic acids with sulfur uh sufferers tumic acid are rather inert yeah so that's that's uh what we've got bran brian that's that's all we've got um and so you can keep a lot of oxygen in the uh |
| 1:08:44 | in the ocean which which don't uh is wasted by uh oxidation below that okay yeah but beneath that you're not you're going to use up any oxygen so you don't make your bottom waters yeah anoxic you just have you just have a loss of oxygen in the middle waters and these particles which fall down they are covered by a bacterial biofilms which keep them also from oxidation with you can have an oxidized environment but uh within the particles below these biofilms you can have a methanogenic or even suffering |
| 1:09:50 | environment so actually within the and they use and they can use surveys for oxidation despite there are in a toxic environment i've got a question um how does how do you relate this to the ice ages because i always think about the co2 going up and down up and down and the co2 goes down there's a lot of biocarbon in the ocean how does that relate to the sat the saprophyll and and this whole discussion well generally speaking life loves an ice age and carbon is not a limiting nutrient and so you'll tend to have |
| 1:10:39 | more uh upwelling more overturning circulation more provision of macronutrients that are limiting and uh if anything you might see an increase in activity of biological activity in the uplink zones and an expansion of the appalling zones as well thank you brian pleasure not very nice answer nothing too very multi multi-dimensional problem this it's um really interesting yeah but that's only you know that that's carbon removal from the from the ocean that's removing um dissolved in organic carbon um for me i don't know anybody else |
| 1:11:26 | we've got to have cooling and so this uh uh ice uh ice these ice shields we haven't mentioned marine cloud brightening not really much yet um there's that uh that cloud cover slide um uh what was the other slide oh somebody wanted to know about um was it brian uh about guyos or was it it might have been hugh remember um so this one here so i made i just spent a little time getting some very helpful data that was made that's made public from scripps one of uh lady at scripps is um uh and just imported this is what i get |
| 1:12:04 | paid for to do to show people how to make things like this um so and uh so these are seamounts i'll put them in put put them into the system and they show up as seamounts um and so um where we got africa there so this was quite a nice one here um depths so it's only 26 meters under the sea um so it's very interesting for fishermen i think they bottom trawl it or something and uh so another interesting map i've actually find well well we use this one here so so where are we here we go go to africa um we can see the |
| 1:12:45 | ocean currents we want we want there to be ocean currents uh so if we have um which one is the currency i think this changed it uh there we go currents um you get to see the currency is lovely this is all amazing this is free stuff so it's around there somewhere you can see what these currents look like and if they're going in the direction you want which is into this into this area where there's no chlorophyll and then another one if we're just talking about seamounts is just go to google um and um |
| 1:13:25 | let's go to africa you see continental ridge here and i think that sea mount was around here somewhere but you can see there's actually loads of opportunities to put a a platform over that if you wanted to fracture it put a platform anchor it over the top and pump compressed air some of them you get to you actually see that they have a sort of flat top now you're going to ask me if i can find one now but if you look carefully with anyone could do this with google maps you see this there's to me there's |
| 1:14:05 | so there's lots of opportunity yeah and keep in mind the you may find that the geothermal heat source is far more cost-effective than the compressed air great if it is just need to find a way to control it brian so that we don't overdo it i think if you control the amount of fracking that might um you know these things tend to plug up over time but um you know slowly increment uh might be a good approach mm-hmm okay it's interesting yeah okay so uh any other questions uh people have been putting chat here i don't |
| 1:14:43 | really notice this chat does anyone want to bring any chat out yep yes john just on the seamounts like live i mean they are very interesting and brian may like to comment on this as well there of course there are locations for a lot of upwelling of nutrients as well and so they have potential near the surface to increase the nutrients for marine permaculture and other benefits as well so that they're fascinating locations to study would you like to comment on that problem well i think that is true i mean there are companies like kelp |
| 1:15:18 | blue that are leveraging the natural upwelling that occurs off the coast of namibia by providing substrate which is limiting there um and in a hundred other countries and locations we need to restore enough natural upwelling there's some recent paper put out by nature uh just less than 12 months ago that described the um the the increase in stratification of the world oceans starting in the latitudes 20 degrees north of 20 degrees south but also in subtropical and temperate latitudes and this stratification in |
| 1:15:49 | recent decades is a dominant factor in the decreased productivity especially in those cloudless gyre regions that pointed out and furthermore that decreased productivity is now correlating with less cloud cover so the point is that there's some indication that by restoring natural upwelling we can restore productivity particularly in these gyre regions that are cloudless and this would have a substantial and enormous effect on marine cloud brightening to the extent that dmso would be involved for algae of all types and so we think |
| 1:16:24 | there's a big opportunity to make a substantial difference here because well he was showing this correlation between chlorophyll and clouds i think chlorophyll is a reasonable proxy for biomass and you know i i'm not sure if you saw the chart i put up earlier on this call that with every degree of warming we get five percent less biomass globally in the oceans and so this represents a significant challenge to the extent that of course biomass and chlorophyll correlate very closely i think you mentioned it i don't |
| 1:16:56 | remember you seeing you put it up brian oh i can try to put it up again i'm on my phone and if this fails i will do it on um i'll do it on my computer which will take a little bit longer let's see it's either a document or it's a or or something else or screen but i'm going to try the document approach and see if that works allow and let me see if i can do a presentation sadly no but i can try to pull up the presentation i assume you're seeing my screen right now uh i'm not okay in that case um go on to |
| 1:17:38 | other topics i'll get i'll log in from my computer and share a screen from there okay probably the best thank you fran uh thank you uh brian sorry yeah so okay um what else oh yes we were gonna see that wouldn't we so um well um social implications of of heat dome is it uh do we wanna talk about that now who wants to talk about that i think i put it up it's um mainly more a a hopeful or positive comment that it's my my gut feeling and intellectual estimate that the huge fires in western canada and western |
| 1:18:20 | north america have changed people's ideas about the risk of climate change and that we are going to now find a lot more governments uh ngos and others prepared to look at at our staff and i'd like like to see whether other people have that have that feeling that they they sense a social change is is happening now anyone well uh i always uh measure it against uh who's gonna make a budget and i don't see any budgets coming budgets come after the social change but i i think we are seeing the the fact |
| 1:19:08 | that that the ccrc has got some funding is significant i think i think there's another really interesting thing is that the ccrc has got a huge number of students young people that because up until now there's been no no real vehicle for students to um to latch onto um other than the the kind of um anti-capitalist anti-fossil fuel movement but here we're saying well let's not let's not be anti-capitalist anti-fossil fuel let's do research into things that might actually make a difference i think there's a real a change in |
| 1:19:58 | opinion i'm agreeing with you said okay the students have got not not not got lots of money with them but they're the next generation they're going to be pretty soon um making decisions and making making their voices heard yes and i agree uh i said i think this is quite a seminal moment and you know that 49. |
| 1:20:24 | 5 degrees up there in canada it's thriving and people were dying i mean the politicians take notice when people are dying and this is this happened here in australia recently too so this is a wake-up call and i think it could actually be a change at the turning point public opinion changes first before the politicians move on public opinion in my mind it's definitely started to change the trick is is we've got all the ducks lined up for when the political will changes we've got to be ready to go at the moment certainly well |
| 1:21:07 | you know you've got to be prepared and get everything ready to go for when that when that political will does change it's going to be public opinion changes first then you know that drives the policy the politicians uh behavior doesn't it public opinion if i can ask the question hugh uh there's more research being done and from the ccrc perspective what budget would be needed to make a meaningful impact on the climate once the research is done are we talking a billion a trillion a hundred trillion |
| 1:21:48 | every little helps a billion is a very good good amount you can do a lot with a billion right any thoughts i'm sure you think you thought about this a lot i can only imagine you're probably talking i wonder if he can hear if he can't hear you can you hear us you who's on mute right now oh maybe he can't hear us oh man maybe he switched us off and he's doing something else that's right so sev 54 000 of your uh ice island ice volcanoes each of those is i i'm guessing a million dollars |
| 1:22:31 | that's that's the wind turbines the number of ice islands is about uh 40 or 50 times that but they're just the pumping tubes the wind turbines are the things costing most and what's the price tag do you guess i think a 2.5 megawatt wind turbine is around 5 million but i haven't looked at figures for a while right okay so 5 million times uh 54 000 yeah man i'm getting old ice field do that in my head apology 250 billion dollars yeah 250 billion dollars so um here is uh i think is is uh back in back with us oh are you |
| 1:23:23 | back with us hugh sorry sorry i was i was i had my speaker off and i was just i was on a global mute for a minute or two there um i don't know the answer to the questions and i think um uh we'll find out about costs i think as we progress through our project um do you have a wild guess it's just a gut feeling are we talking so we just figured out 250 billion dollars for the uh wind turbines in the arctic for freezing the arctic yeah well but plus double that right to do everything else what what what a cost of to do what to |
| 1:24:07 | do yeah to refreeze the arctic well see i mean i think the um the arctic probably can't be uh re-frozen just by focusing on the arctic i think it's going to require um global cooling to some degree um my my sense is that um if we can manage to do some mid-latitude cooling to try and help reduce the sea temperature that just which is the the water that's flowing northwards into the arctic is warm and uh i my feeling is that is such a huge source of heat in the arctic we've got to try and deal with that |
| 1:25:05 | um it's a it's going to be a case of um we've got a there's going to be no one one magic bullet we're going to have to be constant be focused on everything um yeah but we should look at one bullet at a time and so one bullet is the ice volcanoes and that's um and that's a half a trillion yeah well that's that's fair enough but i think we probably need to to figure out what we can do on a modest scale as an experiment to to to to validate the technique and to get a more realistic estimate of costs |
| 1:25:47 | hmm okay yeah i mean the small experimental volcano could probably go a long way and that's probably worth doing a few million dollar but maybe something smaller um i've already suggested a much smaller experiment which hughes aware of i've been using a a long tube of hollow foam polystyrene and a a a cooling uh freezer unit from an old freezer truck and a bit of a pumping of of water into a sloping tube that should tell you both the rate at which you can get ice thickening under given atmospheric conditions |
| 1:26:38 | and a an estimate of how much gas and salinity is in the brine i think i think that's right seth but i but i think that if we're going to be thinking in terms of uh experiments in the arctic sometime in the next very few years they've got to be in the planning stage from now right we don't want to wait until after we do you know i don't think this is going to be a stereo process it's got to be a parallel process indeed parallel and probably the best place to start doing that is at churchill on hudson bay you've got |
| 1:27:22 | a nice research unit there with the u university of manitoba you've got areas which will freeze uh uh you know the the ice does sea ice does form on hudson bay and you can you have got a nice little village albeit with a few polar bears around uh from which you can do your experiment in relative comfort right do you even have an airport um brian is ready to show his screen i'm also interested to know um what's happening as as regards nozzles and and marine club brightening for some reason stephen hasn't joined us |
| 1:28:01 | uh this this this time but is uh are you still planning to do something with that um hugh absolutely and um we're um uh we've got a um a summer intern starting uh this week beginning of next week and then um but the main we've got a meeting on um i think later this week to uh anyway it's all moving forward um and it's it's really about getting the right um the right people in the right place but it's all moving forward we probably have more to report in a couple of weeks time excellent |
| 1:28:44 | excellent thank you very much uh yep the screen's showing brian all right all right so well the black uh curves here show the historical correlation of uh temperature and uh change in marine biomass and then rcp 2.6 up through 6.5 8.5 uh has also shown the modeling and this of course relates to clive's drawing of the chlorophyll relating to cloud cover because to the extent these relationships end up being causal then the warming results in less biomass which results in less chlorophyll which results in less clouds which is a |
| 1:29:25 | runaway feedback loop so from that perspective it behooves us to try to untie this gordian knot and actually address these issues with restoring the nutrient value chain gap which includes upwelling and an analysis of micronutrients how does your upwelling work um brian because we have we use marine solar energy in the low latitudes wave attitude wave wave power in temperate latitudes and wind power and high latitudes to restore natural upwelling to pre-industrial levels this chart here is from the nature paper in 2020 |
| 1:30:04 | that articulates the increase in stratification of the oceans the brown zones are increased stratification and you'll notice the worst effects are between 20 degrees north and south but even in temperate latitudes seasonally we're seeing stratification that's having a substantial effect on marine biomass on a year in year out and seasonal basis so this is what caused you know as you mentioned the permian mass extinction the stratification of the oceans and we're seeing this already and by by this measure |
| 1:30:36 | we're five percent to the permian mass extinction again where we lost 96 of us marine species and we're at the easy end of it once it starts to take hold it's hard to stop um that's a good point quick question on on um obviously the the loss of biomass as temperature increases um the um what do you think of that paper that explains that after around four degrees warming clouds could cover cloud cover could completely disappear and we suddenly get an eight degree rise i don't know if that was out a couple of |
| 1:31:14 | years ago i think um it's peer-reviewed paper did anyone know about right um no i i have studied the some of the research that's being done at caltech by a professor who used to be in switzerland trying to remember his name at the moment but he's done extensive modeling on the relationship of cloud cover with temperature and sadly the early indications are that higher temperatures lean towards less cloud cover which could be through this biological pathway or other pathways right okay yep could be it could be all true daniel |
| 1:31:54 | yeah okay very well yeah uh thank you thank you yeah thank you uh we're about done uh we've had flagging a bit now we've had our own stunning yeah i think we've had 95 minutes yep okay thank you hugh and uh so uh in two weeks time then where are we now the fifth so that'll be the 19th monday the 19th um see you all in in a couple of weeks and i said any last burning question or comment no but just thank you guys that was a very interesting uh discussion likewise absolutely yeah thank you thank |
| 1:32:39 | you to hugh and everyone see you soon i'll send the recording i'll do the usual thank you clive thank you very much welcome bye everybody take care okay bye welcome |